"NATO's military intervention paved way for separatism"
A gathering dedicated to the 13th anniversary of the start of NATO aerial war against the former Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (SRJ) was held in Belgrade.
Bganon, you are absolutely correct when you say that Serbia had no support from anyone, but that is not because Russia didn't want to support but because of who was in power in Russia then and Russia not being able to go up against NATO at that time.
Russia was a mess and taking NATO on would've proved a bad move for them.
(Peggy, 23 March 2012 23:57)
Really ?! I always thought that NATO was p** in the wind, as sj brilliantly has put it LOL
In addition, Russia did not have to fight NATO; it just needed to vote NO in regards to UNSC Resolution 1244 as Serbia demanded.
I am merely pointing out facts - that Kosovo Albanians had backing and Serbia had no real backing.
(bganon, 23 March 2012 23:31)
_________________
That reminds me of 1912 facts, where Albanains had no backing at all
to defend their lands from Greece and Serbia. Albanian's national awakaning exposed the weakness of the Ottomans that promted Greece and Srbia to accuire Albanian lands. The only reason the west prevented all Albanian lands to be partritioned between Serbia and Greece was to stop Serbia (rusian ally) access to Adriatik sea.
They didn't care whether there remained more Albanians outside of the new small Albanian state borders. A problem partially fixed with the second Albanian state.
However there is a better method that leads to unity without war.
EU integration is the only path for all nations of the Ballkan peninsula to peacefuly unite with their ethnic kin residing in the neighbouring countires.
Lenard, "Aaa those were the days when death reigned from the sky's Serbia is subdued. They should of gone after the Serbian criminal leadership and decapitated the evil head of the snake."
This kind of hate speech, using words like "those were the days when death reigned" and promoting decapitation sound like sociopathic comments.
Islamic Law allows for amputation of body parts as punishment. Last year a Jihadist called for late-night commedian David Letterman's tongue to be cut off and his neck to be broken.
Bganon, you are absolutely correct when you say that Serbia had no support from anyone, but that is not because Russia didn't want to support but because of who was in power in Russia then and Russia not being able to go up against NATO at that time.
Russia was a mess and taking NATO on would've proved a bad move for them.
(Peggy, 23 March 2012 23:57)
You are absolutely right Peggy. The Albanians commenting at this site assume that things would be the same today as they were in 1999. They are not. The world has changed tremendously. Russia is far more powerful now than it was then. Further, Russia's leadership doesn't bow down to others like the drunkard former leader and boy pal of Clinton, Yelstin, used to.
Aaa those were the days when death reigned from the sky's http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bkztr16IHeM&feature=related Serbia is subdued. They should of gone after the Serbian criminal leadership and decapitated the evil head of the snake.
The interventions by NATO were as a consequence of a terrible set of behaviours done by Serbs in Bosnia - that could not be allowed to continue after three terrible years, and it could not be allowed to repeat in Kosovo.
Milosevic essentially asked for and got the interventions - they could have been avoided if he had not played his stupid political games so many times over.
HOWEVER!!!! The NATO intervention in Kosovo does not justify the udi attempt. While it was right to stop Milosevic and cronies pursuing murder and mafia behaviours yet again, NATO should have saved Serbs from Milosevic and helped restore proper democratic governance under proper application of law - but not used the opportunity to reward the monoethnic plans of Albanians by supporting an attempted udi.
"Russia was a mess and taking NATO on would've proved a bad move for them.
(Peggy, 23 March 2012 23:57) "
It wasn't up to it in 2008, either - one reason they had to invade at that time was that they had to prevent Georgia from joining NATO, when Russia would face the "entire Nato block, not just Mikheil Saashkvili," as one Russian official was quoted as saying not long ago.
Bganon, you are absolutely correct when you say that Serbia had no support from anyone, but that is not because Russia didn't want to support but because of who was in power in Russia then and Russia not being able to go up against NATO at that time.
Russia was a mess and taking NATO on would've proved a bad move for them.
"Recognitions are meaningless in this case. They have a higher level of "independence" than "Kosova"*. Both have complete control of their borders and both have a military. They also get Russian passports so I don't see a need to push for "independence".
* UNSCR1244
(Zoran, 23 March 2012 16:44) "
Actually, I was referring to Russia when I mentioned recognitions - their attempts to garner recognitions for the two regions have been an international joke. The U.S., against determined efforts by Russia and China, has seen 89 recognitions for Kosovo. Russia simply hasn't been able to convince serious countries that their invasion was justified, and that the regions are genuine nations, despite their attempts to establish an equivalence with Nato's actions in Kosovo. Not a good outcome for a country attempting to convince the world it's a leader, not just a possessor of a lot of nuclear weapons.
We are missing Venezuela&Cuba.
(Kosova-USA, 23 March 2012 15:31)
You forgot to mention Albania, since we are talking about putatively illegitimate states.
I don't understand. Russia is a strong state. Russia support Serbia.But what happen, that Russia don't stop NATO intervention. Was or not Russia in 1999. We say "good friend is needed in bad days".
Russian Ambassador speaks the truth which our government denies. Serbs have a right to defend its Constitution and its land. America has no right to meddling in our internal politics.
NATO you suck big time and I don't give a damn who knows it!
Nato's speciality, machinegunning and bombing innocent civilians and trying to cover it up while at the same time condemning others for killing civilians.
NATO, why don't you grow some balls and own up to your own attrocities for a change instead of pointing the finger at everyone else.
"And who did Serbia have who was willing to support it diplomatically and militarily? Nobody..."
(bganon, 23 March 2012 18:03)
Well, would you have preferred a situation like nowadays where Russia is, for example, supporting Syria diplomatically and militarily so the killing of 'terrorists' can continue?
The statement isn't correct - separatism in Kosovo came BEFORE Nato intervention. NATO intervention sealed the deal for Serbian withdrawal signed by Milosevic at Kumanovo.
And really don't understand these types of statements by Konuzin, like his country had nothing to do with it. Does anybody really think that if the Russians had really backed Serbia in Kosovo in 1999 that Milosevic would have signed Kumanovo? No, they told him to sign it. In other words yes the Albanians had NATO on its side who were willing to support them diplomatically and militarily. And who did Serbia have who was willing to support it diplomatically and militarily? Nobody...
I doubt this is going to be published but anyway I give it a try:
It was a terrible thing for this civilian to die in this small town, they had nothing to do with this war, just like other civilians which died outside Serbia during the aggression of Serbian mafia, backed by Yugoslav institutions, towards neighbouring countries.
It will be known in history that, Serbia used Yugoslavia to wage war on other nations including the Albanians. That was not smart, now you have all this small nation armed to their teeth.
You want to balance the sheets, well you may want to know, what this ambassador failed to mention is the number of deaths caused by civil war in the brake up of Yugoslavia, almost matches second world war, and if it wasn't for NATO this war would still go on, and yes the concentration camps would still be open in Bosnia, and new ones in Croatia and Kosovo.
Look, we can look in the past and we will find only death and misery, or we can build a future remembering that this people regardless what nationality come from were killed due to failed policies from our institutions and doctrines we believed on.
Balkanese people don't need Russia, for that matter EU or NATO. We are capable or being much better than them, only if we believe on ourselves that history of our people is not build around nations but around places where people lived and contributions they gave and give to this places.
NATO's military intervention paved way for freedom.
Your country Mr. Konuzin, was the one who was helping Serbia at the time to kill and ethnically cleanse Kosovo of ethnic Albanians. It continues to do the same with the Syrian regime, Iran etc. You’ve been on the wrong side of the history and you always will.
We are missing Venezuela&Cuba.
(Kosova-USA, 23 March 2012 15:31)
As well as Northkorea and Syria. The list of the countries which attended the meeting can really be summarized as the bottom of the barrel. Earth would be such a nice place if/when those countries (resp. their leaderships) are removed from the map. But don't worry, no dictatorship lasts forever. Team America crushed many over the last 7 decades. Ask the last one, Gadhafi.
Why doesn't this guy run for office in Serbia?
He's certainly talking a big game. He's blaming the West for Serbia's demise much like Kostunica. He's also claiming that Russia is Serbia only true friend. Heck, if that's the case why doesn't Russia donate a few billion to Serbia? If they're too tight with their money they can loan some money at a reasonable rate to their 'brothers'.
I'm surprised he's not doing anything to help Serbia. Instead, he's just talking and talking and talking.
That's pretty insulting to the average Serb.
NATO's 78-day war against Serbia, launched on March 24, 1999, resulted in the deaths of 2,500 civilians, 89 of whom were children, Tanjug news agency is reporting.
--
And here we have NATO living up to its reputation of the world's most advanced civilian killing machine. It also set a precedent for other separatists, which resulted in Ab and SO "independence". Yep, NATO certainly created a mess that still hasn't been cleaned up.
Russia had its chance to change things around, but it neglected that opportunity. I believe Russia controlled the situation but abondoned it all when it relinguished the Kosovo airport, and later pulled out their troops. That was essentially the begining of the Serbian demise. Now Russia is being heroic in their aid and political support, but it's to late. To all my Serbian countrymen, we could say all we want, but the reality is that Kosovo is not under our control, therefore, we are the losers. The only situation I believe would change things around is to bring in principaled politicians like Kostunica, however, that appears unlikely due to the Serbian people's distorted illusions about the EU. In the end, whatever happens, the Serbian nation authored its own destiny. If they still want Tadic, then they shouldn't be surprised when they become an ethnic minority of another country because that's what the evil empire has in store for us.
Venezuela, Nicaragua, and 3 Pacific islands that boasted about how much they were paid for the favor.
(Amer, 23 March 2012 16:20)
--
Recognitions are meaningless in this case. They have a higher level of "independence" than "Kosova"*. Both have complete control of their borders and both have a military. They also get Russian passports so I don't see a need to push for "independence".
Konuzin were certainly talking about South Ossetia and Abkhazia. Attacking Georgia (back in 1992) carving out two parts of it and making them satellites which practically nobody recognizes, speaks volumes.
Konuzin is just pissed that motherf Russia is so failing...
This concentration on one aspect of a much bigger whole reminds me of war crimes committed against German civilians at the end of WWII - the Nazis ran away, leaving the poor and defenceless to carry the can, 2 million women raped by Russians and others, ten million driven from their homes, etc.
Focussing on one, and only one, aspect of these huge conflicts inevitably leads to some massive distortion. Having just read a long article on Visegrad, I cannot believe that NATO did not go for the head of the Greater Serbian snake there and then. But that excludes the fact that the disintegration from one state into sovereign republics is the solution which most penalises the Serbs, not the others.
Of course, if the penalised side attempts to rectify this imbalance by committing genocide, as in Visegrad and countless other places, then of course there is no case left for negotiation. Sadly, the West had weak leaders. Greater Serbs must have been delighted at their luck at having John Major, not Margaret Thatcher.
Murdering innocent civilians is never justified. Many Serb military and political leaders payed dearly for murdering civilians. These other thugs, however, never payed a day in prison for murdering Serbian civilians. It's as if one believes it was justified to murder Serb civilians. If we live by this "an ear for an" ear morality, one day everyone will be dead on earth, for each people has a grievance against another people. At some point in history, a small group of people hurt other people somewhere. Yet does that mean that normal civilians must continue to suffer? This is stupid and crazy. If people retaliated against the US for everything this country did around the rest of the world, we Americans would be in huge trouble! Look at the recent murder of Afghan civilians. Does that justify now some indignant Afghans murdering US citizens whom had nothing to do with this war criminal's actions? Of course not.
What it paved the way for was Russia's invasion of Georgia and separation of Abkhazia and So. Ossetia. Something that does not appear to have gone so well, BTW, considering that the prime goal - removal of Saakashvili - failed, and considering how few countries have ever accepted them as independent countries - Venezuela, Nicaragua, and 3 Pacific islands that boasted about how much they were paid for the favor.
NATO representatives in Brussels claimed that the missiles had "gone off course due to a technical error", adding that "the real target" were army barracks located near the town. Now that's pretty amazing, that the sophisticated NATO military machine was so off target for not just one night, but 13 consecutive nights. I'm sorry folks, but this was a blatant aerial attack on civilian targets, without remorse for the killing that was occurring on the ground.
Separatism started in Kosovo way before the USA (NATO) bombing campaign. Go back over a hundred years and read about the League of Prizren, and their drives for separatism. The USA took advantage of a volatile situation in the Balkans, and a weak Russia, to advance their geo-political ambitions in the Balkans. If anyone here thinks the USA bombings were to save the Albanians, then I have some ocean front property in Pristina to sell you.
"The Kosovo issue is still open, and Kosovo has become a testing range for illegal political meddling in internal affairs of sovereign countries with the use of force," says a Russian member of Moscow's most respected elite which unhesitantly invaded Georgia a sovereign country, split the country in the middle by forming two artificial entities and recognized their independence by obeying 'international law'! What a despicable, mornoic, chauvinistic and two-faced statement. But what else can one expect from brutes such as Russians?
Separatism only means to want to separate. the dissolving of the USSR is a classic example of separatism. The Serbs of Krajina wanted to separate from Croatia as did the Serbs of Bosnia. NATO's intervention was moral as far as I am concerned. I do not see villages burning now, i do not see a million people living in tents in Macedonia or Albania now. Its infinitely better than it was pre-intervention. Oh and sj, please write another post about geo-politics as I really do love reading them.
The way for separatism was paved long before, after the Iron curtain fell, after the Soviet Union (another artificially created country) dissolved, when Milosevic revoked autonomy, and several more things that happened way before 1999.
Russia had its chance to change things around, but it neglected that opportunity. I believe Russia controlled the situation but abondoned it all when it relinguished the Kosovo airport, and later pulled out their troops. That was essentially the begining of the Serbian demise. Now Russia is being heroic in their aid and political support, but it's to late. To all my Serbian countrymen, we could say all we want, but the reality is that Kosovo is not under our control, therefore, we are the losers. The only situation I believe would change things around is to bring in principaled politicians like Kostunica, however, that appears unlikely due to the Serbian people's distorted illusions about the EU. In the end, whatever happens, the Serbian nation authored its own destiny. If they still want Tadic, then they shouldn't be surprised when they become an ethnic minority of another country because that's what the evil empire has in store for us.
NATO's 78-day war against Serbia, launched on March 24, 1999, resulted in the deaths of 2,500 civilians, 89 of whom were children, Tanjug news agency is reporting.
--
And here we have NATO living up to its reputation of the world's most advanced civilian killing machine. It also set a precedent for other separatists, which resulted in Ab and SO "independence". Yep, NATO certainly created a mess that still hasn't been cleaned up.
Separatism started in Kosovo way before the USA (NATO) bombing campaign. Go back over a hundred years and read about the League of Prizren, and their drives for separatism. The USA took advantage of a volatile situation in the Balkans, and a weak Russia, to advance their geo-political ambitions in the Balkans. If anyone here thinks the USA bombings were to save the Albanians, then I have some ocean front property in Pristina to sell you.
NATO representatives in Brussels claimed that the missiles had "gone off course due to a technical error", adding that "the real target" were army barracks located near the town. Now that's pretty amazing, that the sophisticated NATO military machine was so off target for not just one night, but 13 consecutive nights. I'm sorry folks, but this was a blatant aerial attack on civilian targets, without remorse for the killing that was occurring on the ground.
Separatism only means to want to separate. the dissolving of the USSR is a classic example of separatism. The Serbs of Krajina wanted to separate from Croatia as did the Serbs of Bosnia. NATO's intervention was moral as far as I am concerned. I do not see villages burning now, i do not see a million people living in tents in Macedonia or Albania now. Its infinitely better than it was pre-intervention. Oh and sj, please write another post about geo-politics as I really do love reading them.
"The Kosovo issue is still open, and Kosovo has become a testing range for illegal political meddling in internal affairs of sovereign countries with the use of force," says a Russian member of Moscow's most respected elite which unhesitantly invaded Georgia a sovereign country, split the country in the middle by forming two artificial entities and recognized their independence by obeying 'international law'! What a despicable, mornoic, chauvinistic and two-faced statement. But what else can one expect from brutes such as Russians?
Venezuela, Nicaragua, and 3 Pacific islands that boasted about how much they were paid for the favor.
(Amer, 23 March 2012 16:20)
--
Recognitions are meaningless in this case. They have a higher level of "independence" than "Kosova"*. Both have complete control of their borders and both have a military. They also get Russian passports so I don't see a need to push for "independence".
Konuzin were certainly talking about South Ossetia and Abkhazia. Attacking Georgia (back in 1992) carving out two parts of it and making them satellites which practically nobody recognizes, speaks volumes.
Konuzin is just pissed that motherf Russia is so failing...
The statement isn't correct - separatism in Kosovo came BEFORE Nato intervention. NATO intervention sealed the deal for Serbian withdrawal signed by Milosevic at Kumanovo.
And really don't understand these types of statements by Konuzin, like his country had nothing to do with it. Does anybody really think that if the Russians had really backed Serbia in Kosovo in 1999 that Milosevic would have signed Kumanovo? No, they told him to sign it. In other words yes the Albanians had NATO on its side who were willing to support them diplomatically and militarily. And who did Serbia have who was willing to support it diplomatically and militarily? Nobody...
NATO you suck big time and I don't give a damn who knows it!
Nato's speciality, machinegunning and bombing innocent civilians and trying to cover it up while at the same time condemning others for killing civilians.
NATO, why don't you grow some balls and own up to your own attrocities for a change instead of pointing the finger at everyone else.
Russian Ambassador speaks the truth which our government denies. Serbs have a right to defend its Constitution and its land. America has no right to meddling in our internal politics.
The way for separatism was paved long before, after the Iron curtain fell, after the Soviet Union (another artificially created country) dissolved, when Milosevic revoked autonomy, and several more things that happened way before 1999.
We are missing Venezuela&Cuba.
(Kosova-USA, 23 March 2012 15:31)
As well as Northkorea and Syria. The list of the countries which attended the meeting can really be summarized as the bottom of the barrel. Earth would be such a nice place if/when those countries (resp. their leaderships) are removed from the map. But don't worry, no dictatorship lasts forever. Team America crushed many over the last 7 decades. Ask the last one, Gadhafi.
Murdering innocent civilians is never justified. Many Serb military and political leaders payed dearly for murdering civilians. These other thugs, however, never payed a day in prison for murdering Serbian civilians. It's as if one believes it was justified to murder Serb civilians. If we live by this "an ear for an" ear morality, one day everyone will be dead on earth, for each people has a grievance against another people. At some point in history, a small group of people hurt other people somewhere. Yet does that mean that normal civilians must continue to suffer? This is stupid and crazy. If people retaliated against the US for everything this country did around the rest of the world, we Americans would be in huge trouble! Look at the recent murder of Afghan civilians. Does that justify now some indignant Afghans murdering US citizens whom had nothing to do with this war criminal's actions? Of course not.
NATO's military intervention paved way for freedom.
Your country Mr. Konuzin, was the one who was helping Serbia at the time to kill and ethnically cleanse Kosovo of ethnic Albanians. It continues to do the same with the Syrian regime, Iran etc. You’ve been on the wrong side of the history and you always will.
What it paved the way for was Russia's invasion of Georgia and separation of Abkhazia and So. Ossetia. Something that does not appear to have gone so well, BTW, considering that the prime goal - removal of Saakashvili - failed, and considering how few countries have ever accepted them as independent countries - Venezuela, Nicaragua, and 3 Pacific islands that boasted about how much they were paid for the favor.
Bganon, you are absolutely correct when you say that Serbia had no support from anyone, but that is not because Russia didn't want to support but because of who was in power in Russia then and Russia not being able to go up against NATO at that time.
Russia was a mess and taking NATO on would've proved a bad move for them.
I doubt this is going to be published but anyway I give it a try:
It was a terrible thing for this civilian to die in this small town, they had nothing to do with this war, just like other civilians which died outside Serbia during the aggression of Serbian mafia, backed by Yugoslav institutions, towards neighbouring countries.
It will be known in history that, Serbia used Yugoslavia to wage war on other nations including the Albanians. That was not smart, now you have all this small nation armed to their teeth.
You want to balance the sheets, well you may want to know, what this ambassador failed to mention is the number of deaths caused by civil war in the brake up of Yugoslavia, almost matches second world war, and if it wasn't for NATO this war would still go on, and yes the concentration camps would still be open in Bosnia, and new ones in Croatia and Kosovo.
Look, we can look in the past and we will find only death and misery, or we can build a future remembering that this people regardless what nationality come from were killed due to failed policies from our institutions and doctrines we believed on.
Balkanese people don't need Russia, for that matter EU or NATO. We are capable or being much better than them, only if we believe on ourselves that history of our people is not build around nations but around places where people lived and contributions they gave and give to this places.
"And who did Serbia have who was willing to support it diplomatically and militarily? Nobody..."
(bganon, 23 March 2012 18:03)
Well, would you have preferred a situation like nowadays where Russia is, for example, supporting Syria diplomatically and militarily so the killing of 'terrorists' can continue?
Why doesn't this guy run for office in Serbia?
He's certainly talking a big game. He's blaming the West for Serbia's demise much like Kostunica. He's also claiming that Russia is Serbia only true friend. Heck, if that's the case why doesn't Russia donate a few billion to Serbia? If they're too tight with their money they can loan some money at a reasonable rate to their 'brothers'.
I'm surprised he's not doing anything to help Serbia. Instead, he's just talking and talking and talking.
That's pretty insulting to the average Serb.
"Recognitions are meaningless in this case. They have a higher level of "independence" than "Kosova"*. Both have complete control of their borders and both have a military. They also get Russian passports so I don't see a need to push for "independence".
* UNSCR1244
(Zoran, 23 March 2012 16:44) "
Actually, I was referring to Russia when I mentioned recognitions - their attempts to garner recognitions for the two regions have been an international joke. The U.S., against determined efforts by Russia and China, has seen 89 recognitions for Kosovo. Russia simply hasn't been able to convince serious countries that their invasion was justified, and that the regions are genuine nations, despite their attempts to establish an equivalence with Nato's actions in Kosovo. Not a good outcome for a country attempting to convince the world it's a leader, not just a possessor of a lot of nuclear weapons.
This concentration on one aspect of a much bigger whole reminds me of war crimes committed against German civilians at the end of WWII - the Nazis ran away, leaving the poor and defenceless to carry the can, 2 million women raped by Russians and others, ten million driven from their homes, etc.
Focussing on one, and only one, aspect of these huge conflicts inevitably leads to some massive distortion. Having just read a long article on Visegrad, I cannot believe that NATO did not go for the head of the Greater Serbian snake there and then. But that excludes the fact that the disintegration from one state into sovereign republics is the solution which most penalises the Serbs, not the others.
Of course, if the penalised side attempts to rectify this imbalance by committing genocide, as in Visegrad and countless other places, then of course there is no case left for negotiation. Sadly, the West had weak leaders. Greater Serbs must have been delighted at their luck at having John Major, not Margaret Thatcher.
I don't understand. Russia is a strong state. Russia support Serbia.But what happen, that Russia don't stop NATO intervention. Was or not Russia in 1999. We say "good friend is needed in bad days".
We are missing Venezuela&Cuba.
(Kosova-USA, 23 March 2012 15:31)
You forgot to mention Albania, since we are talking about putatively illegitimate states.
Aaa those were the days when death reigned from the sky's http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bkztr16IHeM&feature=related Serbia is subdued. They should of gone after the Serbian criminal leadership and decapitated the evil head of the snake.
Bganon, you are absolutely correct when you say that Serbia had no support from anyone, but that is not because Russia didn't want to support but because of who was in power in Russia then and Russia not being able to go up against NATO at that time.
Russia was a mess and taking NATO on would've proved a bad move for them.
(Peggy, 23 March 2012 23:57)
You are absolutely right Peggy. The Albanians commenting at this site assume that things would be the same today as they were in 1999. They are not. The world has changed tremendously. Russia is far more powerful now than it was then. Further, Russia's leadership doesn't bow down to others like the drunkard former leader and boy pal of Clinton, Yelstin, used to.
Lenard, "Aaa those were the days when death reigned from the sky's Serbia is subdued. They should of gone after the Serbian criminal leadership and decapitated the evil head of the snake."
This kind of hate speech, using words like "those were the days when death reigned" and promoting decapitation sound like sociopathic comments.
Islamic Law allows for amputation of body parts as punishment. Last year a Jihadist called for late-night commedian David Letterman's tongue to be cut off and his neck to be broken.
"Russia was a mess and taking NATO on would've proved a bad move for them.
(Peggy, 23 March 2012 23:57) "
It wasn't up to it in 2008, either - one reason they had to invade at that time was that they had to prevent Georgia from joining NATO, when Russia would face the "entire Nato block, not just Mikheil Saashkvili," as one Russian official was quoted as saying not long ago.
The interventions by NATO were as a consequence of a terrible set of behaviours done by Serbs in Bosnia - that could not be allowed to continue after three terrible years, and it could not be allowed to repeat in Kosovo.
Milosevic essentially asked for and got the interventions - they could have been avoided if he had not played his stupid political games so many times over.
HOWEVER!!!! The NATO intervention in Kosovo does not justify the udi attempt. While it was right to stop Milosevic and cronies pursuing murder and mafia behaviours yet again, NATO should have saved Serbs from Milosevic and helped restore proper democratic governance under proper application of law - but not used the opportunity to reward the monoethnic plans of Albanians by supporting an attempted udi.
Bganon, you are absolutely correct when you say that Serbia had no support from anyone, but that is not because Russia didn't want to support but because of who was in power in Russia then and Russia not being able to go up against NATO at that time.
Russia was a mess and taking NATO on would've proved a bad move for them.
(Peggy, 23 March 2012 23:57)
Really ?! I always thought that NATO was p** in the wind, as sj brilliantly has put it LOL
In addition, Russia did not have to fight NATO; it just needed to vote NO in regards to UNSC Resolution 1244 as Serbia demanded.
I am merely pointing out facts - that Kosovo Albanians had backing and Serbia had no real backing.
(bganon, 23 March 2012 23:31)
_________________
That reminds me of 1912 facts, where Albanains had no backing at all
to defend their lands from Greece and Serbia. Albanian's national awakaning exposed the weakness of the Ottomans that promted Greece and Srbia to accuire Albanian lands. The only reason the west prevented all Albanian lands to be partritioned between Serbia and Greece was to stop Serbia (rusian ally) access to Adriatik sea.
They didn't care whether there remained more Albanians outside of the new small Albanian state borders. A problem partially fixed with the second Albanian state.
However there is a better method that leads to unity without war.
EU integration is the only path for all nations of the Ballkan peninsula to peacefuly unite with their ethnic kin residing in the neighbouring countires.
"The Kosovo issue is still open, and Kosovo has become a testing range for illegal political meddling in internal affairs of sovereign countries with the use of force," says a Russian member of Moscow's most respected elite which unhesitantly invaded Georgia a sovereign country, split the country in the middle by forming two artificial entities and recognized their independence by obeying 'international law'! What a despicable, mornoic, chauvinistic and two-faced statement. But what else can one expect from brutes such as Russians?
Separatism only means to want to separate. the dissolving of the USSR is a classic example of separatism. The Serbs of Krajina wanted to separate from Croatia as did the Serbs of Bosnia. NATO's intervention was moral as far as I am concerned. I do not see villages burning now, i do not see a million people living in tents in Macedonia or Albania now. Its infinitely better than it was pre-intervention. Oh and sj, please write another post about geo-politics as I really do love reading them.
What it paved the way for was Russia's invasion of Georgia and separation of Abkhazia and So. Ossetia. Something that does not appear to have gone so well, BTW, considering that the prime goal - removal of Saakashvili - failed, and considering how few countries have ever accepted them as independent countries - Venezuela, Nicaragua, and 3 Pacific islands that boasted about how much they were paid for the favor.
Konuzin were certainly talking about South Ossetia and Abkhazia. Attacking Georgia (back in 1992) carving out two parts of it and making them satellites which practically nobody recognizes, speaks volumes.
Konuzin is just pissed that motherf Russia is so failing...
NATO's military intervention paved way for freedom.
Your country Mr. Konuzin, was the one who was helping Serbia at the time to kill and ethnically cleanse Kosovo of ethnic Albanians. It continues to do the same with the Syrian regime, Iran etc. You’ve been on the wrong side of the history and you always will.
NATO's 78-day war against Serbia, launched on March 24, 1999, resulted in the deaths of 2,500 civilians, 89 of whom were children, Tanjug news agency is reporting.
--
And here we have NATO living up to its reputation of the world's most advanced civilian killing machine. It also set a precedent for other separatists, which resulted in Ab and SO "independence". Yep, NATO certainly created a mess that still hasn't been cleaned up.
This concentration on one aspect of a much bigger whole reminds me of war crimes committed against German civilians at the end of WWII - the Nazis ran away, leaving the poor and defenceless to carry the can, 2 million women raped by Russians and others, ten million driven from their homes, etc.
Focussing on one, and only one, aspect of these huge conflicts inevitably leads to some massive distortion. Having just read a long article on Visegrad, I cannot believe that NATO did not go for the head of the Greater Serbian snake there and then. But that excludes the fact that the disintegration from one state into sovereign republics is the solution which most penalises the Serbs, not the others.
Of course, if the penalised side attempts to rectify this imbalance by committing genocide, as in Visegrad and countless other places, then of course there is no case left for negotiation. Sadly, the West had weak leaders. Greater Serbs must have been delighted at their luck at having John Major, not Margaret Thatcher.
We are missing Venezuela&Cuba.
(Kosova-USA, 23 March 2012 15:31)
As well as Northkorea and Syria. The list of the countries which attended the meeting can really be summarized as the bottom of the barrel. Earth would be such a nice place if/when those countries (resp. their leaderships) are removed from the map. But don't worry, no dictatorship lasts forever. Team America crushed many over the last 7 decades. Ask the last one, Gadhafi.
Why doesn't this guy run for office in Serbia?
He's certainly talking a big game. He's blaming the West for Serbia's demise much like Kostunica. He's also claiming that Russia is Serbia only true friend. Heck, if that's the case why doesn't Russia donate a few billion to Serbia? If they're too tight with their money they can loan some money at a reasonable rate to their 'brothers'.
I'm surprised he's not doing anything to help Serbia. Instead, he's just talking and talking and talking.
That's pretty insulting to the average Serb.
I doubt this is going to be published but anyway I give it a try:
It was a terrible thing for this civilian to die in this small town, they had nothing to do with this war, just like other civilians which died outside Serbia during the aggression of Serbian mafia, backed by Yugoslav institutions, towards neighbouring countries.
It will be known in history that, Serbia used Yugoslavia to wage war on other nations including the Albanians. That was not smart, now you have all this small nation armed to their teeth.
You want to balance the sheets, well you may want to know, what this ambassador failed to mention is the number of deaths caused by civil war in the brake up of Yugoslavia, almost matches second world war, and if it wasn't for NATO this war would still go on, and yes the concentration camps would still be open in Bosnia, and new ones in Croatia and Kosovo.
Look, we can look in the past and we will find only death and misery, or we can build a future remembering that this people regardless what nationality come from were killed due to failed policies from our institutions and doctrines we believed on.
Balkanese people don't need Russia, for that matter EU or NATO. We are capable or being much better than them, only if we believe on ourselves that history of our people is not build around nations but around places where people lived and contributions they gave and give to this places.
The way for separatism was paved long before, after the Iron curtain fell, after the Soviet Union (another artificially created country) dissolved, when Milosevic revoked autonomy, and several more things that happened way before 1999.
NATO representatives in Brussels claimed that the missiles had "gone off course due to a technical error", adding that "the real target" were army barracks located near the town. Now that's pretty amazing, that the sophisticated NATO military machine was so off target for not just one night, but 13 consecutive nights. I'm sorry folks, but this was a blatant aerial attack on civilian targets, without remorse for the killing that was occurring on the ground.
"And who did Serbia have who was willing to support it diplomatically and militarily? Nobody..."
(bganon, 23 March 2012 18:03)
Well, would you have preferred a situation like nowadays where Russia is, for example, supporting Syria diplomatically and militarily so the killing of 'terrorists' can continue?
Venezuela, Nicaragua, and 3 Pacific islands that boasted about how much they were paid for the favor.
(Amer, 23 March 2012 16:20)
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Recognitions are meaningless in this case. They have a higher level of "independence" than "Kosova"*. Both have complete control of their borders and both have a military. They also get Russian passports so I don't see a need to push for "independence".
Separatism started in Kosovo way before the USA (NATO) bombing campaign. Go back over a hundred years and read about the League of Prizren, and their drives for separatism. The USA took advantage of a volatile situation in the Balkans, and a weak Russia, to advance their geo-political ambitions in the Balkans. If anyone here thinks the USA bombings were to save the Albanians, then I have some ocean front property in Pristina to sell you.
Russia had its chance to change things around, but it neglected that opportunity. I believe Russia controlled the situation but abondoned it all when it relinguished the Kosovo airport, and later pulled out their troops. That was essentially the begining of the Serbian demise. Now Russia is being heroic in their aid and political support, but it's to late. To all my Serbian countrymen, we could say all we want, but the reality is that Kosovo is not under our control, therefore, we are the losers. The only situation I believe would change things around is to bring in principaled politicians like Kostunica, however, that appears unlikely due to the Serbian people's distorted illusions about the EU. In the end, whatever happens, the Serbian nation authored its own destiny. If they still want Tadic, then they shouldn't be surprised when they become an ethnic minority of another country because that's what the evil empire has in store for us.
NATO you suck big time and I don't give a damn who knows it!
Nato's speciality, machinegunning and bombing innocent civilians and trying to cover it up while at the same time condemning others for killing civilians.
NATO, why don't you grow some balls and own up to your own attrocities for a change instead of pointing the finger at everyone else.
Russian Ambassador speaks the truth which our government denies. Serbs have a right to defend its Constitution and its land. America has no right to meddling in our internal politics.
We are missing Venezuela&Cuba.
(Kosova-USA, 23 March 2012 15:31)
You forgot to mention Albania, since we are talking about putatively illegitimate states.
Murdering innocent civilians is never justified. Many Serb military and political leaders payed dearly for murdering civilians. These other thugs, however, never payed a day in prison for murdering Serbian civilians. It's as if one believes it was justified to murder Serb civilians. If we live by this "an ear for an" ear morality, one day everyone will be dead on earth, for each people has a grievance against another people. At some point in history, a small group of people hurt other people somewhere. Yet does that mean that normal civilians must continue to suffer? This is stupid and crazy. If people retaliated against the US for everything this country did around the rest of the world, we Americans would be in huge trouble! Look at the recent murder of Afghan civilians. Does that justify now some indignant Afghans murdering US citizens whom had nothing to do with this war criminal's actions? Of course not.
The statement isn't correct - separatism in Kosovo came BEFORE Nato intervention. NATO intervention sealed the deal for Serbian withdrawal signed by Milosevic at Kumanovo.
And really don't understand these types of statements by Konuzin, like his country had nothing to do with it. Does anybody really think that if the Russians had really backed Serbia in Kosovo in 1999 that Milosevic would have signed Kumanovo? No, they told him to sign it. In other words yes the Albanians had NATO on its side who were willing to support them diplomatically and militarily. And who did Serbia have who was willing to support it diplomatically and militarily? Nobody...
Bganon, you are absolutely correct when you say that Serbia had no support from anyone, but that is not because Russia didn't want to support but because of who was in power in Russia then and Russia not being able to go up against NATO at that time.
Russia was a mess and taking NATO on would've proved a bad move for them.
(Peggy, 23 March 2012 23:57)
You are absolutely right Peggy. The Albanians commenting at this site assume that things would be the same today as they were in 1999. They are not. The world has changed tremendously. Russia is far more powerful now than it was then. Further, Russia's leadership doesn't bow down to others like the drunkard former leader and boy pal of Clinton, Yelstin, used to.
"Recognitions are meaningless in this case. They have a higher level of "independence" than "Kosova"*. Both have complete control of their borders and both have a military. They also get Russian passports so I don't see a need to push for "independence".
* UNSCR1244
(Zoran, 23 March 2012 16:44) "
Actually, I was referring to Russia when I mentioned recognitions - their attempts to garner recognitions for the two regions have been an international joke. The U.S., against determined efforts by Russia and China, has seen 89 recognitions for Kosovo. Russia simply hasn't been able to convince serious countries that their invasion was justified, and that the regions are genuine nations, despite their attempts to establish an equivalence with Nato's actions in Kosovo. Not a good outcome for a country attempting to convince the world it's a leader, not just a possessor of a lot of nuclear weapons.
Bganon, you are absolutely correct when you say that Serbia had no support from anyone, but that is not because Russia didn't want to support but because of who was in power in Russia then and Russia not being able to go up against NATO at that time.
Russia was a mess and taking NATO on would've proved a bad move for them.
I don't understand. Russia is a strong state. Russia support Serbia.But what happen, that Russia don't stop NATO intervention. Was or not Russia in 1999. We say "good friend is needed in bad days".
The interventions by NATO were as a consequence of a terrible set of behaviours done by Serbs in Bosnia - that could not be allowed to continue after three terrible years, and it could not be allowed to repeat in Kosovo.
Milosevic essentially asked for and got the interventions - they could have been avoided if he had not played his stupid political games so many times over.
HOWEVER!!!! The NATO intervention in Kosovo does not justify the udi attempt. While it was right to stop Milosevic and cronies pursuing murder and mafia behaviours yet again, NATO should have saved Serbs from Milosevic and helped restore proper democratic governance under proper application of law - but not used the opportunity to reward the monoethnic plans of Albanians by supporting an attempted udi.
Lenard, "Aaa those were the days when death reigned from the sky's Serbia is subdued. They should of gone after the Serbian criminal leadership and decapitated the evil head of the snake."
This kind of hate speech, using words like "those were the days when death reigned" and promoting decapitation sound like sociopathic comments.
Islamic Law allows for amputation of body parts as punishment. Last year a Jihadist called for late-night commedian David Letterman's tongue to be cut off and his neck to be broken.
I am merely pointing out facts - that Kosovo Albanians had backing and Serbia had no real backing.
(bganon, 23 March 2012 23:31)
_________________
That reminds me of 1912 facts, where Albanains had no backing at all
to defend their lands from Greece and Serbia. Albanian's national awakaning exposed the weakness of the Ottomans that promted Greece and Srbia to accuire Albanian lands. The only reason the west prevented all Albanian lands to be partritioned between Serbia and Greece was to stop Serbia (rusian ally) access to Adriatik sea.
They didn't care whether there remained more Albanians outside of the new small Albanian state borders. A problem partially fixed with the second Albanian state.
However there is a better method that leads to unity without war.
EU integration is the only path for all nations of the Ballkan peninsula to peacefuly unite with their ethnic kin residing in the neighbouring countires.
"Russia was a mess and taking NATO on would've proved a bad move for them.
(Peggy, 23 March 2012 23:57) "
It wasn't up to it in 2008, either - one reason they had to invade at that time was that they had to prevent Georgia from joining NATO, when Russia would face the "entire Nato block, not just Mikheil Saashkvili," as one Russian official was quoted as saying not long ago.
Aaa those were the days when death reigned from the sky's http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bkztr16IHeM&feature=related Serbia is subdued. They should of gone after the Serbian criminal leadership and decapitated the evil head of the snake.
Bganon, you are absolutely correct when you say that Serbia had no support from anyone, but that is not because Russia didn't want to support but because of who was in power in Russia then and Russia not being able to go up against NATO at that time.
Russia was a mess and taking NATO on would've proved a bad move for them.
(Peggy, 23 March 2012 23:57)
Really ?! I always thought that NATO was p** in the wind, as sj brilliantly has put it LOL
In addition, Russia did not have to fight NATO; it just needed to vote NO in regards to UNSC Resolution 1244 as Serbia demanded.
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