Serbia's likely next steps after ICJ ruling

PRN, why do you waste your time, and everyone else's here with your comments. The Balkans do not belong to the Albanians, can you get that through your head? Only mutual agreement on status resolution between Serbia and Kosovo Albanians can end the status conflict. International law must be respected, no matter how much the US wants to side-step it. The people that live in southern Serbia are the ones that will have to LIVE with the resolutions, so the status issue must be agreeable to ALL sides.

How can you you negotiate a partition Kosovo (Albanian territory)with Presevo valley(Alabanian territory too).

That is ALL ALBANIA...You CANT trade Albanian territory for anothoer Albanian territory. This is a extreme stupidity.

In long term this naturally will not work.

PRN

Once again, your comments only serve to embarrass you.

No trading of territories. How can someone(KS)trade something it already has with something that will eventyally get, without having to trade anything.

BTW, who thinks that Serbia will exchange a part of highway(Tabanoce-Vranje)for N.Mitrovica.
(Olf, 15 July 2010, 13:04)

Glad to see you out of the closet and admitting to being a blind Albanian nationalist finally. I remember the days when you tried to pass yourself as international... or the days where you were the slava-attending-Albanian.

You arguments have no changed however. Tired, unoriginal, and naive.

What UN resolution now.
It was UN that recomandet negotiation,Ahtisari as mediator,2 years lasted.Serbia totally ignored them,now is asking again.It was UN ,with his representative Ahtisary, that recomendet Independence for Kosova.Now the ICJ will nail it for good.
Serbia,live Kosova alone!

Jeremic finally came out and said Serbia wants the north of Kosovo in exchange for recognition. I believe that after the sentences "more than autonomy, less than independence" and "unilateral declaration of independence" we will hear a lot "one side loses everything and the other gets everything" in the near future. Congratulations to the writers of the foreign ministry of Serbia, or those responsible for inventing these things, they are very creative, all we hear from the Albanian government is the boring, monotonous "more recognitions will come".

The request will be based on the fact that peace in the region cannot be achieved if one side "loses everything and the other gets everything". Belgrade will also insist on protection of international law.

To many if's in this strategy. I doubt that the Belgrade will even mention the international law if the verdict goes against them.As for the Serbia geting some of that everything that kosova has gotten i am prety sure the serbs don't want the mass graves,rapes and destruction that you gave us.

and then they send it to the General Assembly and then.... what?

The best the General Assembly can do is to make recommendation to the Security Council. The Security Council has already declined to do anything further about this and is not obliged in any way to follow the recommendations of the General Assembly.

So, nothing.

Why wasn't this offered before? Would have saved everyone the headaches and today we would be working to solve actual day to day problems instead of dealing with stupid inat that brought absolutely nothing of value to either side.

Jeremic/Tadic - how about you pick up the damn phone and dial Sejdiu's and/or Thaci's number, tell them here's the deal, and get things rolling without needing anyone's babysitting services? Or is that too forward thinking of a stunt?

*sigh*

Demi you can keep repeating that kind of thing to assure yourself, but its no use saying things that are untrue.

There were no negotiations, there was an ultimatum which Serbia refused.

Artissari was not a compromise, it was not agreed upon by one of two sides, thus it cannot be a compromise. Besides, the indepdence of Kosovo was the goal of Kosovo Albanians, Artisari gives that, so where is the compromise?

Serbs do not have the same rights and opportunities as Albanians. If the two communities actually were to mix more 8 times out of 10 a Serb would be discriminated against if he tried to be employed by an Albanian.

No most Serbs do not want it all in Kosovo and nor do any of us really expect that by miracle entire Kosovo will become a province of Serbia.

That is called a starting point for negotiations and an attempt at a principled, consistent position in public.

There will be no real peace or prosperity in Kosovo until we sit down and negotiate.

No trading of territories. How can someone(KS)trade something it already has with something that will eventyally get, without having to trade anything.

BTW, who thinks that Serbia will exchange a part of highway(Tabanoce-Vranje)for N.Mitrovica.

To all serbs. If negotiations happends again and Serbia dosen't back down from '' more than autonomy and less than independence'' and Kosovo dosen't back down from it's independence, what should we do then ?? Negotiate for hundred years ?


We albanians knows that Serbia will not back down from it's stance and we are not interested in a solution wich would make us to give up our achivments and our free and democratic sociaty to stay in the same country with a people who murdered us and repressed us for more than hundred years.


Negotiations happend for 2 years and nothing came out of it. The best compromise wich could be achived is the independence wich Kosovo has now. It is a country with a neutral flag and anthem and albanian and serbian is official laungage in Kosovo. Serbs in Kosovo has the same rights and oppertunitys as the albanians and this is more than a fair compromise.


It woulden't be a compromise if Kosovo would have autonomy inside the borders of Serbia because then Serbia will have it all. Kosovo already had autonomy but serbs diden't respect that. If albanians would get it all then Kosovo would be a part of Albania with an albanian flag. But we compromised and Ahtisaari found a solution wich even serbs in Kosovo could live with. Every human being despite etnicity can relate to the Kosovar flag and anthem and dosen't have to feel like they live in somebody elses country.

If a serb works active for Kosovo he can even be a president of Kosovo.


Does serbs want the whole cake without respect for the majority population in Kosovo? Maybee a serbian flag hanging in downtown Prishtina ??


Kosovo independence cannot and will not change!!

(bganon, 15 July 2010 16:08)

bganon,

Of course albanians have compromised. Ahtisaaris solutions is far from the ideal that albanians wanted.

The solutions albanians wanted is: an independent Kosovo that respects the rights of minorities but with no decentralization, with an albanian type flag, with the option to join Albania, a national hymn with some albanian words in it, and a properly equiped army. This might not sit well with the multi-ethnic idea....but if we albanians are honest - thats what we ideally would have wanted. In the same way that serbs would ideally want a Kosovo without albanians...a fact emphasized by Serbia's policies over the last 100 years.

So our politicians did compromise but obviously not far enough as far as Serbia is concerned.

The only way any talks could have any result is when Serbia talks to Kosovo as an independent state...then some compromise might be reach between two independent countries that need to resolve obvious problems.

"PRN, why do you waste your time, and everyone else's here with your comments. The Balkans do not belong to the Albanians, can you get that through your head? Only mutual agreement on status resolution between Serbia and Kosovo Albanians can end the status conflict.
(quasistate, "

Whatever you think boss, but we never had "negotiations" when the Serbes crossed the Danube too...
And with Serbs this is the only language they understand it seams.

Just to point out ladys and gentelman, all this process could have been solved 10 years ago, but the brave words of ultra ethnic nationalists in BG thought they will have a ride and some fun around the world. Now that you are drowning in facts that Serbia never had and never will have Kosovo, you are all sinking your anchors to whatever it can catch, but be not surprised when your anchor only reaches some Siberian land for peace.

Shouldn't Balto Slavs hang around more with Balto Slavs?

The Albanians already have a country so there is no compromise on independence. A partition will open a can of worms that no-one can close.

I have a feeling the sell-outs are just about to commit their ultimate sell-out but they are the ones who will face the consequences.
(Zoran, 15 July 2010 11:46)

Yes, you are right the Albanians have a country which was chopped up to please Serbian greed in the 1912 since you were the "darling" of France, and Russia at the time, and Albanians didn't have anyone to back them up. You must agree at least that you never enjoyed Kosovo without conflicts and wars, it was always a controversial issue.

Let me ask you how many times have alb army marched into Serbia and vice versa, just to give an idea about your intentions during history.

Take a look at 1919 Peace Conference in Paris and see how Albania (of today's borders) was chopped up and Serbia got the northern part. US vetoed that proposal and that was the only reason today's Albania exists..... apparently you would be claiming today that northern Albania is the Serbian state birthplace I bet you.

Besides, the indepdence of Kosovo was the goal of Kosovo Albanians, Artisari gives that, so where is the compromise?

[...]

(bganon, 15 July 2010 16:08)

And Belgrades's goal was to see Kosovo under Serbia rule, completely neglecting the atrocities and humiliation which have been committed during the 90s. If Serbia would have got what it wants, where would have been the compromise as well?

There is no compromise in that matter. Kosovo cannot be semi-independent or half-dependent. There is no middle way in a yes or no question. You can keep demanding "negotiations" like a defiant child. There will be none because everybody knows that Belgrade simply prefers a perpetual discussion rather than an inconveniant decision. The Albanians will not support Serbia's incapabalities to live with this defeat. Learn to live with it, or don't. But spare us from implying that there is a possibility for compromise because that might be one of the biggest lies which came ever from a Serbian mouth.

the same level of independence or autonomy for the majority Albanian south, as for the Serb north of the province.
--
Now what is that supposed to mean? The Albanians already have a country so there is no compromise on independence. A partition will open a can of worms that no-one can close.

I have a feeling the sell-outs are just about to commit their ultimate sell-out but they are the ones who will face the consequences.

Finally someone is geting smart and flying down to the real politic.
Serbs can't get nothing if they don't give nothing. Now, after a lot of blood someone gat the picture.
Presevo for Mitrovica.
It is fair.
it'll solve for ever the question.
Finally, the albanian and serbs will be neighbors

Wishful thinking!

Yet there is another problem... the las 10 years, the north of mitrovica has been cleansed from albanians, and districts like medvegja and bujanov have been left out of the deal, so a fair deal would be> serbia gets north of mitrovica, albania gets the entire presheva valley

Demi you can keep repeating that kind of thing to assure yourself, but its no use saying things that are untrue.

''There were no negotiations, there was an ultimatum which Serbia refused.''

- No that is not true. Negotiations was held and none of the parties did back down from their stance. A proof that new negotiations is meaningless.

''Artissari was not a compromise, it was not agreed upon by one of two sides, thus it cannot be a compromise. Besides, the indepdence of Kosovo was the goal of Kosovo Albanians, Artisari gives that, so where is the compromise? ''

-Ahtisaari was a big compromise between the people living in Kosovo, albanians,serbs and others because every people have equal rights in the multi-ethnic Kosovo. The agreement would touch those parties wich the future solution would affect in reality and in daily life. That means that he came up a solution compromised by the people living in Kosovo and not a solution wich would be compromised with a non affected part as is Serbia. In the end it means that every etnicity in Kosovo would give up somthing. If you ask albanians they would would tell you that they want to be part of Albania or be independent having an related albanian flag and anthem. So albanians diden't get everything they wanted and so the serbs in Kosovo won't either. Kosovo has it's writen borders and the borders cannot change. The people inside those borders must live toghether and the Ahtisaari-Plan was the best solution brought to the table for that.

''Serbs do not have the same rights and opportunities as Albanians. If the two communities actually were to mix more 8 times out of 10 a Serb would be discriminated against if he tried to be employed by an Albanian. ''

- Yes maybee you are right about that today but I think in 10-30 years things will change. It will be like in every other country. I think that albanians and serbs can work and live toghether because they have to due to they are neighbours. But only in an independent multi-ehtnic Kosovo.

''No most Serbs do not want it all in Kosovo and nor do any of us really expect that by miracle entire Kosovo will become a province of Serbia.''

-Ok that is what the serbs gave up. Being a province of Serbia. Serbs in Kosovo got the same as albanians.

Nikshala so you and Kosovo Albanians wanted a greater albanian, to unify with Albanian, call it what you will. And you have been forced to compromise into having an independent state?

Unless you've been hiding it well, I don't recall you calling for that Albania. So you compromised? So it was the intention of the people of Kosovo to create a greater albania? Or in other words Serbia was right about that?

I don't actually believe most people in Kosovo are interested with unifying with Albania. I think they want just what everybody else wants, a future, normality, peace and so on.

Demi its possible that my memory is rusty but I seem to remember that Kosovo Albanians signed up to the western sponsored plan and the Serbs did not.

I do not call 'compromise' equal rights beween people. I call that compulsory, in fact I find it a little offensive that anybody could think this is a compromise. It is being civilised, being normal as a human being, not a 'compromise'.

The other part of your argument I touched on above. I don't believe that Kosovo Albanians went to war for a greater albania. I think this is just being used now as an argument to prove how the Kosovo Albanian goal - indepdence is somehow a compromise, when in fact on paper it is nothing less than victory.

As for flags, you know Kosovo Serbs would be perfectly happy to not be able to have their own flag / anthem if it meant remaining in Serbia. Its meaningless, you just get your flag out anyway and sing the anthem of whichever country you want. Its not against the law, as Albanians in Serbia proper know.

John C 'If Serbia would have got what it wants, where would have been the compromise as well?'. For your information if Serbia had got what it wanted that would not have been a compromise. And I'll go further, had Belgrade got what it wanted I would argued for sitting down with Kosovo Albanians and compromising. It is obvious that that scenario would be untenable, just like this scenario is for Serbs.

And you say that Kosovo cannot be semi independent. Well, what do you think it is now??? Exactly that. You have indepdence but in half form, because you are occupied by internationals.

And as for childishness, the only childish position is to stubornly say 'MINE!'. The mature way to handle problems, issues is to talk about them.

I think the next Serbian step will actually be "Please, please, please, do not let them take it away!

After the hearing from the ICJ it will be Kosova that will knok at the UN door.
It will seek membership,and Serbia cant ask the UN for nothing anymore in regard of Kosova.

bganon, you had at least 10 years to think of an "acceptable solution for both sides" and yet you want to start "negotiations" without having anything to even make the other side pay attention.

The best you could get was partition. Now even that is going to be very expensive to Serbia if it ever happens. I'm sorry but you always have elected the wrong politicians to lead your people, politicians that never had any ability to forsee in advance, politicians that continue to built their life careers on your sentiments.

What is strange to me is how naive you think people are?

For example your only goal when calling "compromise" is to actually pretend to find a compromise and expect the other side to sit and wait for an eternity until the momentum fades away.
I sincerely don't understand how a diplomat like Tadic or Jeremic goes into UN and still screams "compromise".

miri as you well know the issue of Kosovo is not one that politicians (Serb or Albanian) feel they can be honest about.

In fact the truth is that a certain amount of people here, not politicians, even now cannot be honest about the situation and how things have remained largely the same over the past 10 years.

However, the fact is that Belgrade is in a position to offer more than it could before. It has used all legal means (ie not war) to achieve what it can and the Serbian people know this. The Serbian people also know that there will be no return to Kosovo province status.

Some Serbs here such as Zoran even suspect that Tadic would be willing to sell Kosovo out in private agreement. That is the theory that Tadic is your man, a man who talks tough, but will go along with what the West (US, UK, France, Germany) wants in the end and the West wants Kosovo independence.

Now I don't believe that Tadic is a western puppet. I believe that Tadic is a pragmatist, one who is willing to make deals, not too courageous, but more courageous than the average leader, as long as he will end up smelling of roses in the end. That is his personality. He really has a pathological need to be liked.

You and other Albanians must realise that Serbia cannot offer an olive branch in public, that they can't (or feel they can't) do such a thing for fear of being labled traitors and such like.

But the realisation among the Serbian people about Kosovo (that Zoran often talks about, or rather what he says is the preparation by the government and the media for the selling out of Kosovo) is based on realism today.

In fact the attitude of the Kosovo Albanian politicians and public is much more hardline, akin to the Serbian attitude in the 90's.

I pity you in that respect because it was a challenge for those of us that believed that Milosevic was following the wrong policies on many issues including Kosovo, a really difficult time. But now we, the realists, are the majority.

We cannot offer miracles or even too much honesty, but we are prepared to negotiate and above all we want to move foreward.

No most Serbs do not want it all in Kosovo and nor do any of us really expect that by miracle entire Kosovo will become a province of Serbia.
(bganon, 15 July 2010)

Bganon you are in th eminority. The impression I get from most Serbs here tell me otherwise. All I hear from the Serb camp is screams of "Kosovo is Serbia"

Also can someone please explain to me what does "less than indepedence more than autonomy" mean. It's a concept I'm not familiar with and without precedence as far I know.

"The request will be based on the fact that peace in the region cannot be achieved if one side "loses everything and the other gets everything".

Serbia has clearly stated that it will never recognise Kosovo independence. In other words is "aiming to get everything" when it comes to "new status negotiations". Now following the Serbian logic why should the Albanians in Kosovo give up of the achivement of "getting everything" to satisfy Serbia? There is NO LOGIC!



"If the Serbian resolution is adopted by the UN, the process of recognitions of Kosovo will finally be stopped altogether, and Kosovo will be unable to join international organizations, the UN included, says the article."

That will make the Kosovo Albanians feel "happier" to return under Serbian sovereignity because they can see how much Serbia "looks after them"...)

Presevo for Mitrovica.
It is fair.
it'll solve for ever the question.
Finally, the albanian and serbs will be neighbors
(Milorad, 15 July 2010 15:43)

May be that will put an end of the Conflict between Serbs and Albanians? But it will open Pandora’s box. What about Srpska? Sandzak? Northern Vojvodina? The Albanian populated parts of Macedonia and Montenegro? The list has no end. May be a kind of autonomy of Mitrovica within Serbia and autonomy of Presevo within Serbia would be a better solution? But then again it may turn out to be the first step of new waves of separatism. When will it all end?

It is what Kosovo is now. It's self-fulfilling - More than autonomy, less than independence.
(Zoran, 16 July 2010)

Let me get this right: you want to reopen negotiations and what you are offering is what Kosova IS now? Am I missing something here?

We cannot offer miracles or even too much honesty, but we are prepared to negotiate and above all we want to move foreward.
(bganon, 16 July 2010 20:45)

It is good that you want to negotiate(finally), but you can't just negotiate after you try to kill me first. It is hypocritical that you want to negotiate only when you can't send the army to rule me by force...

K-Alb want some guarantees that their lives will not be in danger under the Serbian state any longer. What guarantees do you offer, considering the past? Can you full-heartly promise that another Milosevic will not come along in the future and start a conflict all over again? Think about it for a min?

Now would you be willing to let K-Alb have their own army as they please to protect themselves, which essentially means a de facto independence. Of course not .... end of the story... thus independece is the only way out.

I would personally agree upon an exhange of territories and/or population in a hearbeat though.

Finally someone is geting smart and flying down to the real politic.
Serbs can't get nothing if they don't give nothing. Now, after a lot of blood someone gat the picture.
Presevo for Mitrovica.
It is fair.
it'll solve for ever the question.
Finally, the albanian and serbs will be neighbors
(Milorad, 15 July 2010 15:43)


Milorad is right! This is the only way of peace and possibly force Albanians into negotiating! If Albanians don´t take this one, they will slowely loose support from the west and will be left to defend themselves on their own.

Serbia has clearly stated that it will never recognise Kosovo independence.
(EA, 15 July 2010 23:44)

EA, they were joking. The Serbian gov. did not mean what they said. Did you read the article?

bganon, you have to excuse some of the Albanian readers. Some of them, including me, were taking Jeremic's declarations seriously. So there is a lot of inertia in our thinking right now, conditioned as it was by the word "never". Give them some time to get used to the new offer from Serbia. I wonder what is going on in the other camp. There is inertia there too probably.

Also can someone please explain to me what does "less than indepedence more than autonomy" mean. It's a concept I'm not familiar with and without precedence as far I know.
(Zoti, 15 July 2010 21:29)
--
It is what Kosovo is now. It's self-fulfilling - More than autonomy, less than independence.

How can you you negotiate a partition Kosovo (Albanian territory)with Presevo valley(Alabanian territory too).

That is ALL ALBANIA...You CANT trade Albanian territory for anothoer Albanian territory. This is a extreme stupidity.

In long term this naturally will not work.

Wishful thinking!

What UN resolution now.
It was UN that recomandet negotiation,Ahtisari as mediator,2 years lasted.Serbia totally ignored them,now is asking again.It was UN ,with his representative Ahtisary, that recomendet Independence for Kosova.Now the ICJ will nail it for good.
Serbia,live Kosova alone!

No trading of territories. How can someone(KS)trade something it already has with something that will eventyally get, without having to trade anything.

BTW, who thinks that Serbia will exchange a part of highway(Tabanoce-Vranje)for N.Mitrovica.

To all serbs. If negotiations happends again and Serbia dosen't back down from '' more than autonomy and less than independence'' and Kosovo dosen't back down from it's independence, what should we do then ?? Negotiate for hundred years ?


We albanians knows that Serbia will not back down from it's stance and we are not interested in a solution wich would make us to give up our achivments and our free and democratic sociaty to stay in the same country with a people who murdered us and repressed us for more than hundred years.


Negotiations happend for 2 years and nothing came out of it. The best compromise wich could be achived is the independence wich Kosovo has now. It is a country with a neutral flag and anthem and albanian and serbian is official laungage in Kosovo. Serbs in Kosovo has the same rights and oppertunitys as the albanians and this is more than a fair compromise.


It woulden't be a compromise if Kosovo would have autonomy inside the borders of Serbia because then Serbia will have it all. Kosovo already had autonomy but serbs diden't respect that. If albanians would get it all then Kosovo would be a part of Albania with an albanian flag. But we compromised and Ahtisaari found a solution wich even serbs in Kosovo could live with. Every human being despite etnicity can relate to the Kosovar flag and anthem and dosen't have to feel like they live in somebody elses country.

If a serb works active for Kosovo he can even be a president of Kosovo.


Does serbs want the whole cake without respect for the majority population in Kosovo? Maybee a serbian flag hanging in downtown Prishtina ??


Kosovo independence cannot and will not change!!

and then they send it to the General Assembly and then.... what?

The best the General Assembly can do is to make recommendation to the Security Council. The Security Council has already declined to do anything further about this and is not obliged in any way to follow the recommendations of the General Assembly.

So, nothing.

"PRN, why do you waste your time, and everyone else's here with your comments. The Balkans do not belong to the Albanians, can you get that through your head? Only mutual agreement on status resolution between Serbia and Kosovo Albanians can end the status conflict.
(quasistate, "

Whatever you think boss, but we never had "negotiations" when the Serbes crossed the Danube too...
And with Serbs this is the only language they understand it seams.

Just to point out ladys and gentelman, all this process could have been solved 10 years ago, but the brave words of ultra ethnic nationalists in BG thought they will have a ride and some fun around the world. Now that you are drowning in facts that Serbia never had and never will have Kosovo, you are all sinking your anchors to whatever it can catch, but be not surprised when your anchor only reaches some Siberian land for peace.

Shouldn't Balto Slavs hang around more with Balto Slavs?

No trading of territories. How can someone(KS)trade something it already has with something that will eventyally get, without having to trade anything.

BTW, who thinks that Serbia will exchange a part of highway(Tabanoce-Vranje)for N.Mitrovica.
(Olf, 15 July 2010, 13:04)

Glad to see you out of the closet and admitting to being a blind Albanian nationalist finally. I remember the days when you tried to pass yourself as international... or the days where you were the slava-attending-Albanian.

You arguments have no changed however. Tired, unoriginal, and naive.

Besides, the indepdence of Kosovo was the goal of Kosovo Albanians, Artisari gives that, so where is the compromise?

[...]

(bganon, 15 July 2010 16:08)

And Belgrades's goal was to see Kosovo under Serbia rule, completely neglecting the atrocities and humiliation which have been committed during the 90s. If Serbia would have got what it wants, where would have been the compromise as well?

There is no compromise in that matter. Kosovo cannot be semi-independent or half-dependent. There is no middle way in a yes or no question. You can keep demanding "negotiations" like a defiant child. There will be none because everybody knows that Belgrade simply prefers a perpetual discussion rather than an inconveniant decision. The Albanians will not support Serbia's incapabalities to live with this defeat. Learn to live with it, or don't. But spare us from implying that there is a possibility for compromise because that might be one of the biggest lies which came ever from a Serbian mouth.

PRN, why do you waste your time, and everyone else's here with your comments. The Balkans do not belong to the Albanians, can you get that through your head? Only mutual agreement on status resolution between Serbia and Kosovo Albanians can end the status conflict. International law must be respected, no matter how much the US wants to side-step it. The people that live in southern Serbia are the ones that will have to LIVE with the resolutions, so the status issue must be agreeable to ALL sides.

PRN

Once again, your comments only serve to embarrass you.

The Albanians already have a country so there is no compromise on independence. A partition will open a can of worms that no-one can close.

I have a feeling the sell-outs are just about to commit their ultimate sell-out but they are the ones who will face the consequences.
(Zoran, 15 July 2010 11:46)

Yes, you are right the Albanians have a country which was chopped up to please Serbian greed in the 1912 since you were the "darling" of France, and Russia at the time, and Albanians didn't have anyone to back them up. You must agree at least that you never enjoyed Kosovo without conflicts and wars, it was always a controversial issue.

Let me ask you how many times have alb army marched into Serbia and vice versa, just to give an idea about your intentions during history.

Take a look at 1919 Peace Conference in Paris and see how Albania (of today's borders) was chopped up and Serbia got the northern part. US vetoed that proposal and that was the only reason today's Albania exists..... apparently you would be claiming today that northern Albania is the Serbian state birthplace I bet you.

Finally someone is geting smart and flying down to the real politic.
Serbs can't get nothing if they don't give nothing. Now, after a lot of blood someone gat the picture.
Presevo for Mitrovica.
It is fair.
it'll solve for ever the question.
Finally, the albanian and serbs will be neighbors

the same level of independence or autonomy for the majority Albanian south, as for the Serb north of the province.
--
Now what is that supposed to mean? The Albanians already have a country so there is no compromise on independence. A partition will open a can of worms that no-one can close.

I have a feeling the sell-outs are just about to commit their ultimate sell-out but they are the ones who will face the consequences.

(bganon, 15 July 2010 16:08)

bganon,

Of course albanians have compromised. Ahtisaaris solutions is far from the ideal that albanians wanted.

The solutions albanians wanted is: an independent Kosovo that respects the rights of minorities but with no decentralization, with an albanian type flag, with the option to join Albania, a national hymn with some albanian words in it, and a properly equiped army. This might not sit well with the multi-ethnic idea....but if we albanians are honest - thats what we ideally would have wanted. In the same way that serbs would ideally want a Kosovo without albanians...a fact emphasized by Serbia's policies over the last 100 years.

So our politicians did compromise but obviously not far enough as far as Serbia is concerned.

The only way any talks could have any result is when Serbia talks to Kosovo as an independent state...then some compromise might be reach between two independent countries that need to resolve obvious problems.

I think the next Serbian step will actually be "Please, please, please, do not let them take it away!

Demi you can keep repeating that kind of thing to assure yourself, but its no use saying things that are untrue.

''There were no negotiations, there was an ultimatum which Serbia refused.''

- No that is not true. Negotiations was held and none of the parties did back down from their stance. A proof that new negotiations is meaningless.

''Artissari was not a compromise, it was not agreed upon by one of two sides, thus it cannot be a compromise. Besides, the indepdence of Kosovo was the goal of Kosovo Albanians, Artisari gives that, so where is the compromise? ''

-Ahtisaari was a big compromise between the people living in Kosovo, albanians,serbs and others because every people have equal rights in the multi-ethnic Kosovo. The agreement would touch those parties wich the future solution would affect in reality and in daily life. That means that he came up a solution compromised by the people living in Kosovo and not a solution wich would be compromised with a non affected part as is Serbia. In the end it means that every etnicity in Kosovo would give up somthing. If you ask albanians they would would tell you that they want to be part of Albania or be independent having an related albanian flag and anthem. So albanians diden't get everything they wanted and so the serbs in Kosovo won't either. Kosovo has it's writen borders and the borders cannot change. The people inside those borders must live toghether and the Ahtisaari-Plan was the best solution brought to the table for that.

''Serbs do not have the same rights and opportunities as Albanians. If the two communities actually were to mix more 8 times out of 10 a Serb would be discriminated against if he tried to be employed by an Albanian. ''

- Yes maybee you are right about that today but I think in 10-30 years things will change. It will be like in every other country. I think that albanians and serbs can work and live toghether because they have to due to they are neighbours. But only in an independent multi-ehtnic Kosovo.

''No most Serbs do not want it all in Kosovo and nor do any of us really expect that by miracle entire Kosovo will become a province of Serbia.''

-Ok that is what the serbs gave up. Being a province of Serbia. Serbs in Kosovo got the same as albanians.

Why wasn't this offered before? Would have saved everyone the headaches and today we would be working to solve actual day to day problems instead of dealing with stupid inat that brought absolutely nothing of value to either side.

Jeremic/Tadic - how about you pick up the damn phone and dial Sejdiu's and/or Thaci's number, tell them here's the deal, and get things rolling without needing anyone's babysitting services? Or is that too forward thinking of a stunt?

*sigh*

The request will be based on the fact that peace in the region cannot be achieved if one side "loses everything and the other gets everything". Belgrade will also insist on protection of international law.

To many if's in this strategy. I doubt that the Belgrade will even mention the international law if the verdict goes against them.As for the Serbia geting some of that everything that kosova has gotten i am prety sure the serbs don't want the mass graves,rapes and destruction that you gave us.

"The request will be based on the fact that peace in the region cannot be achieved if one side "loses everything and the other gets everything".

Serbia has clearly stated that it will never recognise Kosovo independence. In other words is "aiming to get everything" when it comes to "new status negotiations". Now following the Serbian logic why should the Albanians in Kosovo give up of the achivement of "getting everything" to satisfy Serbia? There is NO LOGIC!



"If the Serbian resolution is adopted by the UN, the process of recognitions of Kosovo will finally be stopped altogether, and Kosovo will be unable to join international organizations, the UN included, says the article."

That will make the Kosovo Albanians feel "happier" to return under Serbian sovereignity because they can see how much Serbia "looks after them"...)

No most Serbs do not want it all in Kosovo and nor do any of us really expect that by miracle entire Kosovo will become a province of Serbia.
(bganon, 15 July 2010)

Bganon you are in th eminority. The impression I get from most Serbs here tell me otherwise. All I hear from the Serb camp is screams of "Kosovo is Serbia"

Also can someone please explain to me what does "less than indepedence more than autonomy" mean. It's a concept I'm not familiar with and without precedence as far I know.

Demi you can keep repeating that kind of thing to assure yourself, but its no use saying things that are untrue.

There were no negotiations, there was an ultimatum which Serbia refused.

Artissari was not a compromise, it was not agreed upon by one of two sides, thus it cannot be a compromise. Besides, the indepdence of Kosovo was the goal of Kosovo Albanians, Artisari gives that, so where is the compromise?

Serbs do not have the same rights and opportunities as Albanians. If the two communities actually were to mix more 8 times out of 10 a Serb would be discriminated against if he tried to be employed by an Albanian.

No most Serbs do not want it all in Kosovo and nor do any of us really expect that by miracle entire Kosovo will become a province of Serbia.

That is called a starting point for negotiations and an attempt at a principled, consistent position in public.

There will be no real peace or prosperity in Kosovo until we sit down and negotiate.

Jeremic finally came out and said Serbia wants the north of Kosovo in exchange for recognition. I believe that after the sentences "more than autonomy, less than independence" and "unilateral declaration of independence" we will hear a lot "one side loses everything and the other gets everything" in the near future. Congratulations to the writers of the foreign ministry of Serbia, or those responsible for inventing these things, they are very creative, all we hear from the Albanian government is the boring, monotonous "more recognitions will come".

Nikshala so you and Kosovo Albanians wanted a greater albanian, to unify with Albanian, call it what you will. And you have been forced to compromise into having an independent state?

Unless you've been hiding it well, I don't recall you calling for that Albania. So you compromised? So it was the intention of the people of Kosovo to create a greater albania? Or in other words Serbia was right about that?

I don't actually believe most people in Kosovo are interested with unifying with Albania. I think they want just what everybody else wants, a future, normality, peace and so on.

Demi its possible that my memory is rusty but I seem to remember that Kosovo Albanians signed up to the western sponsored plan and the Serbs did not.

I do not call 'compromise' equal rights beween people. I call that compulsory, in fact I find it a little offensive that anybody could think this is a compromise. It is being civilised, being normal as a human being, not a 'compromise'.

The other part of your argument I touched on above. I don't believe that Kosovo Albanians went to war for a greater albania. I think this is just being used now as an argument to prove how the Kosovo Albanian goal - indepdence is somehow a compromise, when in fact on paper it is nothing less than victory.

As for flags, you know Kosovo Serbs would be perfectly happy to not be able to have their own flag / anthem if it meant remaining in Serbia. Its meaningless, you just get your flag out anyway and sing the anthem of whichever country you want. Its not against the law, as Albanians in Serbia proper know.

John C 'If Serbia would have got what it wants, where would have been the compromise as well?'. For your information if Serbia had got what it wanted that would not have been a compromise. And I'll go further, had Belgrade got what it wanted I would argued for sitting down with Kosovo Albanians and compromising. It is obvious that that scenario would be untenable, just like this scenario is for Serbs.

And you say that Kosovo cannot be semi independent. Well, what do you think it is now??? Exactly that. You have indepdence but in half form, because you are occupied by internationals.

And as for childishness, the only childish position is to stubornly say 'MINE!'. The mature way to handle problems, issues is to talk about them.

Also can someone please explain to me what does "less than indepedence more than autonomy" mean. It's a concept I'm not familiar with and without precedence as far I know.
(Zoti, 15 July 2010 21:29)
--
It is what Kosovo is now. It's self-fulfilling - More than autonomy, less than independence.

After the hearing from the ICJ it will be Kosova that will knok at the UN door.
It will seek membership,and Serbia cant ask the UN for nothing anymore in regard of Kosova.

Finally someone is geting smart and flying down to the real politic.
Serbs can't get nothing if they don't give nothing. Now, after a lot of blood someone gat the picture.
Presevo for Mitrovica.
It is fair.
it'll solve for ever the question.
Finally, the albanian and serbs will be neighbors
(Milorad, 15 July 2010 15:43)


Milorad is right! This is the only way of peace and possibly force Albanians into negotiating! If Albanians don´t take this one, they will slowely loose support from the west and will be left to defend themselves on their own.

We cannot offer miracles or even too much honesty, but we are prepared to negotiate and above all we want to move foreward.
(bganon, 16 July 2010 20:45)

It is good that you want to negotiate(finally), but you can't just negotiate after you try to kill me first. It is hypocritical that you want to negotiate only when you can't send the army to rule me by force...

K-Alb want some guarantees that their lives will not be in danger under the Serbian state any longer. What guarantees do you offer, considering the past? Can you full-heartly promise that another Milosevic will not come along in the future and start a conflict all over again? Think about it for a min?

Now would you be willing to let K-Alb have their own army as they please to protect themselves, which essentially means a de facto independence. Of course not .... end of the story... thus independece is the only way out.

I would personally agree upon an exhange of territories and/or population in a hearbeat though.

bganon, you had at least 10 years to think of an "acceptable solution for both sides" and yet you want to start "negotiations" without having anything to even make the other side pay attention.

The best you could get was partition. Now even that is going to be very expensive to Serbia if it ever happens. I'm sorry but you always have elected the wrong politicians to lead your people, politicians that never had any ability to forsee in advance, politicians that continue to built their life careers on your sentiments.

What is strange to me is how naive you think people are?

For example your only goal when calling "compromise" is to actually pretend to find a compromise and expect the other side to sit and wait for an eternity until the momentum fades away.
I sincerely don't understand how a diplomat like Tadic or Jeremic goes into UN and still screams "compromise".

Yet there is another problem... the las 10 years, the north of mitrovica has been cleansed from albanians, and districts like medvegja and bujanov have been left out of the deal, so a fair deal would be> serbia gets north of mitrovica, albania gets the entire presheva valley

Presevo for Mitrovica.
It is fair.
it'll solve for ever the question.
Finally, the albanian and serbs will be neighbors
(Milorad, 15 July 2010 15:43)

May be that will put an end of the Conflict between Serbs and Albanians? But it will open Pandora’s box. What about Srpska? Sandzak? Northern Vojvodina? The Albanian populated parts of Macedonia and Montenegro? The list has no end. May be a kind of autonomy of Mitrovica within Serbia and autonomy of Presevo within Serbia would be a better solution? But then again it may turn out to be the first step of new waves of separatism. When will it all end?

miri as you well know the issue of Kosovo is not one that politicians (Serb or Albanian) feel they can be honest about.

In fact the truth is that a certain amount of people here, not politicians, even now cannot be honest about the situation and how things have remained largely the same over the past 10 years.

However, the fact is that Belgrade is in a position to offer more than it could before. It has used all legal means (ie not war) to achieve what it can and the Serbian people know this. The Serbian people also know that there will be no return to Kosovo province status.

Some Serbs here such as Zoran even suspect that Tadic would be willing to sell Kosovo out in private agreement. That is the theory that Tadic is your man, a man who talks tough, but will go along with what the West (US, UK, France, Germany) wants in the end and the West wants Kosovo independence.

Now I don't believe that Tadic is a western puppet. I believe that Tadic is a pragmatist, one who is willing to make deals, not too courageous, but more courageous than the average leader, as long as he will end up smelling of roses in the end. That is his personality. He really has a pathological need to be liked.

You and other Albanians must realise that Serbia cannot offer an olive branch in public, that they can't (or feel they can't) do such a thing for fear of being labled traitors and such like.

But the realisation among the Serbian people about Kosovo (that Zoran often talks about, or rather what he says is the preparation by the government and the media for the selling out of Kosovo) is based on realism today.

In fact the attitude of the Kosovo Albanian politicians and public is much more hardline, akin to the Serbian attitude in the 90's.

I pity you in that respect because it was a challenge for those of us that believed that Milosevic was following the wrong policies on many issues including Kosovo, a really difficult time. But now we, the realists, are the majority.

We cannot offer miracles or even too much honesty, but we are prepared to negotiate and above all we want to move foreward.

It is what Kosovo is now. It's self-fulfilling - More than autonomy, less than independence.
(Zoran, 16 July 2010)

Let me get this right: you want to reopen negotiations and what you are offering is what Kosova IS now? Am I missing something here?

Serbia has clearly stated that it will never recognise Kosovo independence.
(EA, 15 July 2010 23:44)

EA, they were joking. The Serbian gov. did not mean what they said. Did you read the article?

bganon, you have to excuse some of the Albanian readers. Some of them, including me, were taking Jeremic's declarations seriously. So there is a lot of inertia in our thinking right now, conditioned as it was by the word "never". Give them some time to get used to the new offer from Serbia. I wonder what is going on in the other camp. There is inertia there too probably.