EU-Western Balkans conference in Sarajevo

One key question that threatened to turn the gathering into a fiasco was the status of the Kosovo Albanian delegation. Belgrade insisted that Serbia's sovereignty be respected by insuring that the Priština delegation's presence does not violate UN Resolution 1244

what UN R 1244?

zanier will speak on behalf of Dead-MIK,and FM Hyseni will speak on behalf of Kosova/o.
Every FM will be treated equally. end of story.

I like Gymnich format because it enabled Serbia to participate and avoid isolation.

Let's hope Slovenia conference was the last one where Serbia was out.

How ridiulous that the sovereign states of Europe are unable to show their own flags, titles or have photo opps just because of Kosovo refusing to appear as an international protectorate. This is their legal status, and no amount of denial changes international law and UN resolutions.

The whole thing just illustrates the failed policies of the 'international community' in the Balkans.
(kate, 2 June 2010 10:47)

Katic,

Let me rephrase your comment, to sound more realistic.

How ridiulous that the sovereign states of Europe are unable to show their own flags, titles or have photo opps just because of Serbia is refusing recognise the reality in the ground Kosovo independence, just as the practically the entire region and almost all EU did.

I wonder if albanians at the conference are more interested in showing off a flag or to make the lives of their people better?

People have to respect the fact that albanians want independece and that many nations are behind this for personal reasons. However, albanians and their suggar daddys need to respect the fact that Serbia is against independence and that a majority of world nations are as well.

With the absence of Germany, the economic superpower of Europe, one decisive participant is missing. Berlin apparently doesn't condone the current meeting in that way it is held. Considering the fact that the stance of Germany regarding Kosovo, Bosnia, etc. is well known, it is clear to whom that message is sent to. Serbia doesn't play a constructive role and is caught in its past. It is clear that Serbia's stance is ultima ratio politically, socially and most important economically a dead end. Investors will tend to go to Romania, Bulgaria and soon Croatia, avoiding the political hot spot Serbia.

The current meeting will not produce any new results. Spanish EU presidency is a failure.

How ridiulous that the sovereign states of Europe are unable to show their own flags, titles or have photo opps just because of Kosovo refusing to appear as an international protectorate. This is their legal status, and no amount of denial changes international law and UN resolutions.

The whole thing just illustrates the failed policies of the 'international community' in the Balkans.

@ PRN - Actually the majority of nations have not recognised Kosovo's UDI and the EU has not recognised it either. So your 'reality on the ground' is not a reality in the eyes of international law.

A a sovereign state within whose borders Kosovo is legally a province is hardly likely to just put their hands up and accept annexation of 15% of their territory.

I like Gymnich format because it enabled Serbia to participate and avoid isolation.
(PRN, 2 June 2010 10:11)
--
Of course you like the Gymnich format, it means that all legitimate states in the region, including the most powerful, have to reduce themselves to the same non-state level of "Kosova". It just demonstrates who isn't willing to compromise and what EU/US policy has done to the Balkans. It is an embarrassment and failure to say the least. I'm not surprised Germany doesn't want to be seen anywhere near Sarajevo.

By the way PRN, if you like this format so much, why is UNMIK there?

non kate (aka Mirub): "Actually it was done so that Serbia would show up. Kosovo and Serbia are equals at the conference which is using the same formula as the Slovenia sponsored conference which Serbia boycotted as being unacceptable.
Kosovo did not have to change their stance, EU did not have to change their stance but Serbia had to change theirs."

Maybe the fact that Res 1244 states that the province of Kosovo cannot be represented as a state at any official meetings has something to do with it.

By the way PRN, if you like this format so much, why is UNMIK there?
( Zoran, 2 June 2010 13:34)

You're wrong. unmik is not there just Mr. zanier, Mr. Hiseni, Mr. Jeremic, Mr. Meta. Etc.

Kate, since you mention international law in both of your posts, could you please enlighten us as to what the definition of a state is according to that discipline?

Furthermore, is there any other legal basis to your claims than S/RES/1244?

Best regards,

Tom

(TomC, 2 June 2010 14:51)

Tom: Kate will not bother answering you.

Not because she is rude- she is simply an ignorant in international law but likes to repeat it.

probably she is thinking of it being a fashion thing...

This meeting was a show, for both EU citizens (to show how the EU cares for poor Balkans) and for the Balkan citizens (who are afraid the EU doesn't want them). Being a show, they agreed to have as many people present as possible. They REALLY wanted Serbia on the table, so they said, sure, Kosovo UNMIK, why not. After hours of tapping each other’s backs and saying Western Balkans states will be part of the EU (just first fulfill the criteria), everybody goes home happy to report to local media and "informed" public, so they can post their comments somewhere.
Now, that's nice, but there is still corruption, organized crime, ethnic hatred. We need to solve those things. I know people live in bad conditions everywhere. If Kosovo Albanians think they can deal with their problems alone, good luck to them. I would suggest to stop being stubborn and give Serbia a second chance. Serbia on the other hand needs to prove it deserves that chance. Both of these processes will not be completed by politicians. They need to come from the people. Good-willing Serbs should make sure their own intolerant football-fan-types of fanatics, racists, Jew/Roma/Albanian haters become extinct. Good-willing Albanians, need to stand up to their similarly hostile and narrow-minded political/military elites, and build a society within which there will be leaders to represent the regions in their local/regional self-government. Having two separate states that both don’t function properly is not necessary.
For all this, we all need to have a LOT of patience and energy to fight the easy-path of hatred, division and isolation. I say screw the EU elites, and their interests. I say screw our politicians. Let’s solve the “Kosovo question” on our own.

You're wrong. unmik is not there just Mr. zanier, Mr. Hiseni, Mr. Jeremic, Mr. Meta. Etc.
(Mirub Jager, 2 June 2010 14:10)
--
Does it hurt to put UNMIK in capitals Mr Jager? Is this a fancy dress conference by any chance? It would explain the no-camera policy. Hyseni would dress as the prisoner, Zanier as the prison guard. It's a shame Germany couldn't attend to fill the role of warden. Spain would be no good as it's more of a gate keeper.

How ridiulous that the sovereign states of Europe are unable to show their own flags, titles or have photo opps just because of Kosovo refusing to appear as an international protectorate. This is their legal status, and no amount of denial changes international law and UN resolutions.

The whole thing just illustrates the failed policies of the 'international community' in the Balkans.
(kate, 2 June 2010 10:47)
Actually it was done so that Serbia would show up. Kosovo and Serbia are equals at the conference which is using the same formula as the Slovenia sponsored conference which Serbia boycotted as being unacceptable.
Kosovo did not have to change their stance, EU did not have to change their stance but Serbia had to change theirs.

"Kosovo did not have to change their stance, EU did not have to change their stance but Serbia had to change theirs."
non kate

Hmmmm.... Sure about that or is it just another lie from the albanian camp?

"Whether one likes it or not, Serbia is the main Balkan geopolitical factor."

"A compromise formula was finally achieved through the efforts of Italian Foreign Minister Franco Frattini, who used the so-called “Gymnich” format, introduced in 1974 by the European Community for informal meetings without formal conclusions."
http://www.todayszaman.com/tz-web/news-211489-what-can-be-expected-from-the-sarajevo-conference-by-hajrudin-somun.html

"Serbia has vowed never to recognise the secession of Kosovo, and to get it to the table, all state names or symbols were removed for the gathering."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/10213031.stm

You were saying?

The current meeting will not produce any new results. Spanish EU presidency is a failure.
(John, 2 June 2010 11:07)

I think Spain as a whole is a failure along with Greece, Cyprus, Romania and all Serbia's friends.

The best result I could think of is the Western Balkans joining EU together at the same time, as one country. It would undo the historic mistake not to allow Yugoslavia to become part of EU in the beginning of the 90's. If it would have been allowed then, thousands of lives would have been spared and several wars would have been no more than minor conflicts... BTW, in most of Europe, Yugoslavia and Yugoslavs still exist in everydays'languange. The same with Czechoslovakia and Czechoslovaks, a country of wich more and more people (even in the succeeding countries) think it was a mistake to split it up. I am truely convinced that both countries deserve another chance. Hej, Sloveni...

Maybe the fact that Res 1244 states that the province of Kosovo cannot be represented as a state at any official meetings has something to do with it.
(kate, 2 June 2010 15:01)
Could you maybe cut and paste the part of the resolution that says that. MY copy has that passage missing. I swear one of these days I have to get one of the Serbian versions of 1244, it contains a lot of stuff the rest of the world did not get.

You're wrong. unmik is not there just Mr. zanier, Mr. Hiseni, Mr. Jeremic, Mr. Meta. Etc.
(Mirub Jager,

But that would mean that UMNIK is independent .O_o.

What a hard trip for VUK who has to sholder RS messages too. So easy to fly to far places, but your neighbours give you grief? mmm wake up damn it.

Some people in here fail to activate the common sense. Do you guys know that, as shown in the past, for the EU it is more important Kosovo participation than Serbia's. This is why they make utmost to fulfil criteria of equality that Kosovo wants rather the insignificant and nonsense demand that Serbia requests.

Slovenia is example in point, whereas in Sarajevo official Belgrade realised that it cannot obtain its request and the remaining alternative was stay-home, so agreed on Gymnich/equality format.

"Some people in here fail to activate the common sense. Do you guys know that, as shown in the past, for the EU it is more important Kosovo participation than Serbia's. This is why they make utmost to fulfil criteria of equality that Kosovo wants rather the insignificant and nonsense demand that Serbia requests" (PRN)

-- Hmm. From my side of your padded cell, I seem to recall Belgrade pushing for the Gymnich format, not resigning themselves to it. I also seem to recall Pristina being adamant about being represented as an equal state with full state symbols, not really caring about what other participants want. I also seem to remember that all that came out of Brdo meeting in Slovenia was Thaci raiding the buffet table before the entire conference broke up. It's nice that you're concerned with Belgrade's presence at these meetings, but it's a bit difficult to activate "the common sense" according to your axioms without a doctor's prescription.

I'm sure Frank the Bunny tells you all sorts of interesting things.

“Maybe the fact that Res 1244 states that the province of Kosovo cannot be represented as a state at any official meetings has something to do with it.
(kate, 2 June 2010 15:01)”

Kate, can you please let us know where it says ‘the province of Kosovo” in Res 1244? I’ve gone through it just now and could not find anywhere? Is it possible that there are two versions!!??

JS

Yugoslavia is no more and it belongs in the history books. It has brought Serbs nothing but pain and missery. Serbian land has been taken from Serbs and given to other people. Serbs were the biggest loosers in Jugoslavia. We gave the most but received the least. Enough is enough! I can never be as proud to be a Yugoslav as I am being a Serb.

pss - Resolution 1244 confirms Serbia's sovereignty, so of course it goes against 1244 for Kosovo to be represented as a state.

Ben, you are jumping between threads just to personally try and insult me. I'm not going to stoop to your level, my friend.

Ben, Joe and Mirub Jager strangely all seem to have the exact same tone about them, and they have all started to suddenly sound very unpleasant.

Thank you for your answer, Kate. It would have been nice to hear what you understand a state to be according to international law, but Wikipedia will do.

I would say that Kosovo fulfills the requirements of a state, both according to the constitutive and the declarative theories of statehood.

I have the same comment to Vuks comments just like yesterday. He said that much progress has been made in the last six months in the fields of political relations in the region and the reconciliation process. Its all fake just as brotherhood and unity of former socialist Yugoslavia only self serving short term greedy goals. With no real justice for Bosnia and the region namely of the war creation hideous Srpska Entity. Just like the desperate Foreign Minister Vuk Jeremić statement below that it all holds together before it explodes and you squeak in to the EU dreaming.

“It would be a great shame if this was not followed by not only a continuation, but a faster process of European integration,” Jeremić said. Of coarse everyone close your eyes and think good happy thoughts wallah were all good and every thing is good sure. We must be living in the last days like God said that he will send strong delusions. 2Th 2:11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 2Th 2:12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness. Regional leaders, along with officials from the EU, Russia, America and Turkey, as well as various international organizations, will attend the conference. Yes the international helpers are coming that screwed the Balkans for centurys.

The goal will be to confirm the European perspective of the Western Balkans, said reports. What is this fake made up illusion of the imaginary European perspective that you are willing to sell your soul and everything else.

Jeremić is in Banja Luka today, where he is meeting with Republic of Srpska Prime Minister Milorad Dodik, from where he will head to Sarajevo. Yes Confirm how couple of the regions politicians held hands maybe even kissed a baby that is the proof Serbia will be a shoo-in and the Serb image is improving.
(Lenard, 1 June 2010 18:47)
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Thank you Kate for your interesting response. I'd like to add a few comments.

Your § 1: Nowhere in S/RES/1244 is it written that Kosovo is a province. The validity of S/RES/1244 as of June 2010 is not self-evident, given that a majority of the countries that voted for that resolution have modified their practices since. Also, the fact that a majority of European states (incl. a majority of the former republics of SFRY) have recognised the UDI supports that claim. Customary int'l law is an important source of int'l law.

§ 2: I would not talk about "outside" parties since these actions have been undertaken by 1) institutions representing the majority of Kosovo's population 2) regional actors, such as all of Kosovo's neighbours except for Serbia.

§ 4: Kosovo not being under threat is a questionable argument. Would the declarations of independence by the Baltic states have been more justified if there had been an imminent Soviet threat? I'd say they were legitimate declarations independently of the element of threat.

§ 5: The UN and EU have fairly little to say when it comes to int'l law. Public int'l law is essentially created by states through codification and practice. However, the ICJ's advisory opinion will be a source of law.

§ 6: In April it was reported that Montenegro is awaiting recognition from 72 states. That does not imply that one third of the world's countries explicitly deny the sovereignty of Montenegro. Holders of Serbian passports sometimes face difficulties at international borders when the Republic of Serbia is not on the list of states. In the end, that proves quite little about the sovereignty of those two countries.

§ 7: Obviously the advisory opinion of the ICJ will set the tone for future cases. As stated in my former post, there are still some criteria for statehood in int'l law, consequently every single case must first and foremost be approached as a sui generis.

Best regards,

Tom

TomC - Well I am sure that you could have found it yourself, but here is the wiki version link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_state

So we actually have all participants in SE Europe attend and the biggest thing our Albanian friends here are concerned with is whether or not the Kosovo delegation can fly a flag no one in Kosovo actually flies.

On one level I'm glad pragmatism entered the Kosovo-Albanian delegation's mind: remember that Sejdiu kept saying that Kosovo will be represented as an equal state with all its symbols. That appears to not have happened since the conference organizers placed greater importance on Belgrade's presense than Pristina's pride. But any place where Sejdiu and company can pose for pictures with international delegates outside their own Green Zone is probably going to be translated into a major victory or something like that.

On another level I really doubt this conference is going to be a watershed in establishing a clear timetable, roadmap, whatever you want to call it for Balkan ascension to the EU. What I am certain of is that by the end of the week we'll be hearing all sorts of Monday-morning quarterbacking from people in both Belgrade and Pristina about how they got one over on the other.

Kosovo declared independence while it was an international protectorate and they were under no threat at all from the new Serbian government in Belgrade. It was almost 10 years after any hostilities.

There were no legal grounds at all to just suddenly annex 15% of Serbia's territory while the province was being administered by the very body which assures Serbia's sovereignty. The UN and the EU both hold status neutral stances towards Kosovo.

The countries who have recognised (less than half of the UN nations) have all done so because of their own agendas or because of pressure from larger countries.

(kate, 3 June 2010 12:52)

Well there was no legal reason why Kosovo was taken from Albanians and given to Serbia 100 yrs ago either.

The legal ground is clear, Serbia does not uphold int'l law when it sent its army to terrorise K-Alb population. Serbia has a history of repressing and killing K-Alb population and being particulary hostile towards their existence.

Further, Kosovo's claim to statehood, amongst many valid claims, should be primarily anchored on the 'moral argument' of widespread state-sponsored killings which made Serbia's continued claim to sovereignty over Kosovo an untenable position. Note that the US's declaration of independence, long before there was any modern-day int'l law or an int'l org like the UN was based primarily on the idea of UK's colonial, repressive policy.

Serbia never was a responsible patron of Kosovo.

"BTW, in most of Europe, Yugoslavia and Yugoslavs still exist in everydays'languange. The same with Czechoslovakia and Czechoslovaks, a country of wich more and more people (even in the succeeding countries) think it was a mistake to split it up. I am truely convinced that both countries deserve another chance. Hej, Sloveni...
(JS,"

The unifications of those lands was the barbaric act to begin with. There was no need of these fake unifications other than to turn Germany Austria Hungary and Italy into defending states, by the great powers, and dont even for a second act like Serbs had anything to do with the choice.

All the other hyped up pan slavik slogans, are unfortunatly as useless now as cube bowling balls.

Today progress, last years catastrophy. Dont blame the EU for not thinking that Yugo will survive.

Ben, you are jumping between threads just to personally try and insult me. I'm not going to stoop to your level, my friend.

(kate, 2 June 2010 23:00)

Kate: your ignorance in international law is not an insult it’s a fact.

You just copy and past some slogans form the Serbian politicians and think that's international law.


P.S. I have some criteria for friendship, you don’t fulfil not even one.

The unifications of those lands was the barbaric act to begin with. (toke, 2 June 2010 16:35)

No, it was not. During the Habsburg era, all Slavs were considered as 2nd class citizens. In both Czechoslovakia and Yugoslavia Slavs became again 1st class people for the first time since centuries. Even though the creation of both countries wasn't perfect, it certainly wasn't barbaric.

Dont blame the EU for not thinking that Yugo will survive.(toke, 2 June 2010 16:35)

I blame EU for nothing, I just think it was a mistake to deny Yugoslavia to enter the EU. The talks had already started and Yugoslavia was in a better economical situation than Greece.

@ Mike C.
Even within Yugoslavia there would be (and there was) more than enough space for proudness to be Serb or Croat or any other nationality. I know that Serbia didn't benefit from being part of Yugoslavia: southern Serbia became Macedonia and Serbia proper was partly divided in authonomous regions, while Croatia wasn't. Live isn't always fair, as we know.

But Yugoslavia was a country the rest of the world took notice of. It was important, it was big, it had an influence on things that happened in the rest of Europe/the world. Nowadays, all the succeeding countries can only see and wait for the plans other nations have with them.

Of course, some people might think that what I am writing here is nonsense. But, considered the comment ratings, some people do not.

Don't forget that Yugoslavia was a country people truely loved, with all the problems and imperfections it had. And that it still lives on in people's hearts, within the Western Balkans as much as beyond.

And of course, the 'reality on the ground' doesn't look like another Yugoslavia is about to happen. But then again, it wouldn't be the first time in history countries pop up or vanish from our maps within a day. It might be already tomorrow that we all wake up in another country. Belgrade has been the capital of more countries than just Serbia, the last century...

Further more I am convinced that a new Yugoslavia (or Serbocroatia, the land of the Serbocroats, Montenegrins included if they want) is the only way for Serbs to 'solve' the problem with the evergrowing population of Albanians in Kosovo. Either you give away Kosovo now (and keep no more than the north part, if you are lucky), either Albanians will become the majority within all of Serbia and 'Beogradi' might become just another city in Albania in 50-100 years. As might Shkupi in Macedonia.

As we know (I think) Serbs and Albanians have different views about what reality is. I think neither of them is wrong, they are just different and opposing. Even if Kosovo will remain a part of Serbia in this 'battle', do you, Serbs, think it would be the end of it? That Albanians will give up and become happy citizens of a part of Serbia? I don't think they will, to be honest.

So I think the choice will be one of the following: 1. Lose Kosovo and praise yourself happy with just the North; 2. Keep all of Kosovo, but be prepared for much more and much bigger trouble to come; 3. Create a reality in which Albanians will never be able to become a majority, give them their own place to live in and support them in creating it (read: don't treat them like they were treated within the SFRJ, since it got you where you are now).

I would choose option 3, I think. The problem of course is that nobody is asking me to choose. No other choice for me than make my own choice and bother people here with it. We never know what it might bring...

TomC - Well thank you at least for being so polite. It is appreciated.

Kosovo is not a state. It is a province as written in the UNSC Res. 1244 which was agreed upon to end the war in 1999. Under international law it still remains within Serbian boundaries.

Various outside parties can shape it how they will, but this is a fact.

Of course this does not mean that Serbia will somehow expect to take over the running of Kosovo. It will ultimately either become fully autonomous or will be partitioned, depending upon which solution is reached.

Kosovo declared independence while it was an international protectorate and they were under no threat at all from the new Serbian government in Belgrade. It was almost 10 years after any hostilities.

There were no legal grounds at all to just suddenly annex 15% of Serbia's territory while the province was being administered by the very body which assures Serbia's sovereignty. The UN and the EU both hold status neutral stances towards Kosovo.

The countries who have recognised (less than half of the UN nations) have all done so because of their own agendas or because of pressure from larger countries.

Apart from anything else the precedent of Kosovo being accepted as a state would have repurcussions around the world. Every ethnic group which had a majority population in an area could then claim independence.

Kate,
UNSC 1244 also states "taking into full account the Rambouillet Accords" which explicitly states "Kosovo will have the authority to make laws not subject to revision by Serbia or the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, including levying taxes, instituting programs of economic, scientific, technological, regional, and social development, conducting foreign relations within its areas of responsibility in the same manner as a Republic, and all matters of local government"

Kosovo declared independence while it was an international protectorate and they were under no threat at all from the new Serbian government in Belgrade. It was almost 10 years after any hostilities.(kate)
Isn't that like saying A woman has no grounds to divorce a husband who use to beat her until he was arrested because now that he is in jail she is under no threat.

Kosovo declared independence while it was an international protectorate and they were under no threat at all from the new Serbian government in Belgrade. It was almost 10 years after any hostilities.(kate)
Isn't that like saying A woman has no grounds to divorce a husband who use to beat her until he was arrested because now that he is in jail she is under no threat.
(doodah, 4 June 2010 14:08)

The husband's lack of concent can not keep the woman with him though. Although it's true that without husband's concent that woman will never get legal marriage, the legal marriage of her hostile husband with another woman is impossible too.
In analogy this means that without recognizing Kosovo, Serbia will never be part of EU. The attempt of Serbia to block Kosovo may have succeeded to some point but in long term it means blockade of Serbia too.

How ridiulous that the sovereign states of Europe are unable to show their own flags, titles or have photo opps just because of Kosovo refusing to appear as an international protectorate. This is their legal status, and no amount of denial changes international law and UN resolutions.

The whole thing just illustrates the failed policies of the 'international community' in the Balkans.

One key question that threatened to turn the gathering into a fiasco was the status of the Kosovo Albanian delegation. Belgrade insisted that Serbia's sovereignty be respected by insuring that the Priština delegation's presence does not violate UN Resolution 1244

what UN R 1244?

zanier will speak on behalf of Dead-MIK,and FM Hyseni will speak on behalf of Kosova/o.
Every FM will be treated equally. end of story.

How ridiulous that the sovereign states of Europe are unable to show their own flags, titles or have photo opps just because of Kosovo refusing to appear as an international protectorate. This is their legal status, and no amount of denial changes international law and UN resolutions.

The whole thing just illustrates the failed policies of the 'international community' in the Balkans.
(kate, 2 June 2010 10:47)

Katic,

Let me rephrase your comment, to sound more realistic.

How ridiulous that the sovereign states of Europe are unable to show their own flags, titles or have photo opps just because of Serbia is refusing recognise the reality in the ground Kosovo independence, just as the practically the entire region and almost all EU did.

@ PRN - Actually the majority of nations have not recognised Kosovo's UDI and the EU has not recognised it either. So your 'reality on the ground' is not a reality in the eyes of international law.

A a sovereign state within whose borders Kosovo is legally a province is hardly likely to just put their hands up and accept annexation of 15% of their territory.

I have the same comment to Vuks comments just like yesterday. He said that much progress has been made in the last six months in the fields of political relations in the region and the reconciliation process. Its all fake just as brotherhood and unity of former socialist Yugoslavia only self serving short term greedy goals. With no real justice for Bosnia and the region namely of the war creation hideous Srpska Entity. Just like the desperate Foreign Minister Vuk Jeremić statement below that it all holds together before it explodes and you squeak in to the EU dreaming.

“It would be a great shame if this was not followed by not only a continuation, but a faster process of European integration,” Jeremić said. Of coarse everyone close your eyes and think good happy thoughts wallah were all good and every thing is good sure. We must be living in the last days like God said that he will send strong delusions. 2Th 2:11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 2Th 2:12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness. Regional leaders, along with officials from the EU, Russia, America and Turkey, as well as various international organizations, will attend the conference. Yes the international helpers are coming that screwed the Balkans for centurys.

The goal will be to confirm the European perspective of the Western Balkans, said reports. What is this fake made up illusion of the imaginary European perspective that you are willing to sell your soul and everything else.

Jeremić is in Banja Luka today, where he is meeting with Republic of Srpska Prime Minister Milorad Dodik, from where he will head to Sarajevo. Yes Confirm how couple of the regions politicians held hands maybe even kissed a baby that is the proof Serbia will be a shoo-in and the Serb image is improving.
(Lenard, 1 June 2010 18:47)
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I wonder if albanians at the conference are more interested in showing off a flag or to make the lives of their people better?

People have to respect the fact that albanians want independece and that many nations are behind this for personal reasons. However, albanians and their suggar daddys need to respect the fact that Serbia is against independence and that a majority of world nations are as well.

I like Gymnich format because it enabled Serbia to participate and avoid isolation.
(PRN, 2 June 2010 10:11)
--
Of course you like the Gymnich format, it means that all legitimate states in the region, including the most powerful, have to reduce themselves to the same non-state level of "Kosova". It just demonstrates who isn't willing to compromise and what EU/US policy has done to the Balkans. It is an embarrassment and failure to say the least. I'm not surprised Germany doesn't want to be seen anywhere near Sarajevo.

By the way PRN, if you like this format so much, why is UNMIK there?

I like Gymnich format because it enabled Serbia to participate and avoid isolation.

Let's hope Slovenia conference was the last one where Serbia was out.

You're wrong. unmik is not there just Mr. zanier, Mr. Hiseni, Mr. Jeremic, Mr. Meta. Etc.
(Mirub Jager, 2 June 2010 14:10)
--
Does it hurt to put UNMIK in capitals Mr Jager? Is this a fancy dress conference by any chance? It would explain the no-camera policy. Hyseni would dress as the prisoner, Zanier as the prison guard. It's a shame Germany couldn't attend to fill the role of warden. Spain would be no good as it's more of a gate keeper.

non kate (aka Mirub): "Actually it was done so that Serbia would show up. Kosovo and Serbia are equals at the conference which is using the same formula as the Slovenia sponsored conference which Serbia boycotted as being unacceptable.
Kosovo did not have to change their stance, EU did not have to change their stance but Serbia had to change theirs."

Maybe the fact that Res 1244 states that the province of Kosovo cannot be represented as a state at any official meetings has something to do with it.

(TomC, 2 June 2010 14:51)

Tom: Kate will not bother answering you.

Not because she is rude- she is simply an ignorant in international law but likes to repeat it.

probably she is thinking of it being a fashion thing...

With the absence of Germany, the economic superpower of Europe, one decisive participant is missing. Berlin apparently doesn't condone the current meeting in that way it is held. Considering the fact that the stance of Germany regarding Kosovo, Bosnia, etc. is well known, it is clear to whom that message is sent to. Serbia doesn't play a constructive role and is caught in its past. It is clear that Serbia's stance is ultima ratio politically, socially and most important economically a dead end. Investors will tend to go to Romania, Bulgaria and soon Croatia, avoiding the political hot spot Serbia.

The current meeting will not produce any new results. Spanish EU presidency is a failure.

Kate, since you mention international law in both of your posts, could you please enlighten us as to what the definition of a state is according to that discipline?

Furthermore, is there any other legal basis to your claims than S/RES/1244?

Best regards,

Tom

JS

Yugoslavia is no more and it belongs in the history books. It has brought Serbs nothing but pain and missery. Serbian land has been taken from Serbs and given to other people. Serbs were the biggest loosers in Jugoslavia. We gave the most but received the least. Enough is enough! I can never be as proud to be a Yugoslav as I am being a Serb.

By the way PRN, if you like this format so much, why is UNMIK there?
( Zoran, 2 June 2010 13:34)

You're wrong. unmik is not there just Mr. zanier, Mr. Hiseni, Mr. Jeremic, Mr. Meta. Etc.

How ridiulous that the sovereign states of Europe are unable to show their own flags, titles or have photo opps just because of Kosovo refusing to appear as an international protectorate. This is their legal status, and no amount of denial changes international law and UN resolutions.

The whole thing just illustrates the failed policies of the 'international community' in the Balkans.
(kate, 2 June 2010 10:47)
Actually it was done so that Serbia would show up. Kosovo and Serbia are equals at the conference which is using the same formula as the Slovenia sponsored conference which Serbia boycotted as being unacceptable.
Kosovo did not have to change their stance, EU did not have to change their stance but Serbia had to change theirs.

You're wrong. unmik is not there just Mr. zanier, Mr. Hiseni, Mr. Jeremic, Mr. Meta. Etc.
(Mirub Jager,

But that would mean that UMNIK is independent .O_o.

What a hard trip for VUK who has to sholder RS messages too. So easy to fly to far places, but your neighbours give you grief? mmm wake up damn it.

The best result I could think of is the Western Balkans joining EU together at the same time, as one country. It would undo the historic mistake not to allow Yugoslavia to become part of EU in the beginning of the 90's. If it would have been allowed then, thousands of lives would have been spared and several wars would have been no more than minor conflicts... BTW, in most of Europe, Yugoslavia and Yugoslavs still exist in everydays'languange. The same with Czechoslovakia and Czechoslovaks, a country of wich more and more people (even in the succeeding countries) think it was a mistake to split it up. I am truely convinced that both countries deserve another chance. Hej, Sloveni...

Some people in here fail to activate the common sense. Do you guys know that, as shown in the past, for the EU it is more important Kosovo participation than Serbia's. This is why they make utmost to fulfil criteria of equality that Kosovo wants rather the insignificant and nonsense demand that Serbia requests.

Slovenia is example in point, whereas in Sarajevo official Belgrade realised that it cannot obtain its request and the remaining alternative was stay-home, so agreed on Gymnich/equality format.

pss - Resolution 1244 confirms Serbia's sovereignty, so of course it goes against 1244 for Kosovo to be represented as a state.

Ben, you are jumping between threads just to personally try and insult me. I'm not going to stoop to your level, my friend.

Ben, Joe and Mirub Jager strangely all seem to have the exact same tone about them, and they have all started to suddenly sound very unpleasant.

The current meeting will not produce any new results. Spanish EU presidency is a failure.
(John, 2 June 2010 11:07)

I think Spain as a whole is a failure along with Greece, Cyprus, Romania and all Serbia's friends.

Maybe the fact that Res 1244 states that the province of Kosovo cannot be represented as a state at any official meetings has something to do with it.
(kate, 2 June 2010 15:01)
Could you maybe cut and paste the part of the resolution that says that. MY copy has that passage missing. I swear one of these days I have to get one of the Serbian versions of 1244, it contains a lot of stuff the rest of the world did not get.

TomC - Well I am sure that you could have found it yourself, but here is the wiki version link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_state

“Maybe the fact that Res 1244 states that the province of Kosovo cannot be represented as a state at any official meetings has something to do with it.
(kate, 2 June 2010 15:01)”

Kate, can you please let us know where it says ‘the province of Kosovo” in Res 1244? I’ve gone through it just now and could not find anywhere? Is it possible that there are two versions!!??

"Kosovo did not have to change their stance, EU did not have to change their stance but Serbia had to change theirs."
non kate

Hmmmm.... Sure about that or is it just another lie from the albanian camp?

"Whether one likes it or not, Serbia is the main Balkan geopolitical factor."

"A compromise formula was finally achieved through the efforts of Italian Foreign Minister Franco Frattini, who used the so-called “Gymnich” format, introduced in 1974 by the European Community for informal meetings without formal conclusions."
http://www.todayszaman.com/tz-web/news-211489-what-can-be-expected-from-the-sarajevo-conference-by-hajrudin-somun.html

"Serbia has vowed never to recognise the secession of Kosovo, and to get it to the table, all state names or symbols were removed for the gathering."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/10213031.stm

You were saying?

So we actually have all participants in SE Europe attend and the biggest thing our Albanian friends here are concerned with is whether or not the Kosovo delegation can fly a flag no one in Kosovo actually flies.

On one level I'm glad pragmatism entered the Kosovo-Albanian delegation's mind: remember that Sejdiu kept saying that Kosovo will be represented as an equal state with all its symbols. That appears to not have happened since the conference organizers placed greater importance on Belgrade's presense than Pristina's pride. But any place where Sejdiu and company can pose for pictures with international delegates outside their own Green Zone is probably going to be translated into a major victory or something like that.

On another level I really doubt this conference is going to be a watershed in establishing a clear timetable, roadmap, whatever you want to call it for Balkan ascension to the EU. What I am certain of is that by the end of the week we'll be hearing all sorts of Monday-morning quarterbacking from people in both Belgrade and Pristina about how they got one over on the other.

This meeting was a show, for both EU citizens (to show how the EU cares for poor Balkans) and for the Balkan citizens (who are afraid the EU doesn't want them). Being a show, they agreed to have as many people present as possible. They REALLY wanted Serbia on the table, so they said, sure, Kosovo UNMIK, why not. After hours of tapping each other’s backs and saying Western Balkans states will be part of the EU (just first fulfill the criteria), everybody goes home happy to report to local media and "informed" public, so they can post their comments somewhere.
Now, that's nice, but there is still corruption, organized crime, ethnic hatred. We need to solve those things. I know people live in bad conditions everywhere. If Kosovo Albanians think they can deal with their problems alone, good luck to them. I would suggest to stop being stubborn and give Serbia a second chance. Serbia on the other hand needs to prove it deserves that chance. Both of these processes will not be completed by politicians. They need to come from the people. Good-willing Serbs should make sure their own intolerant football-fan-types of fanatics, racists, Jew/Roma/Albanian haters become extinct. Good-willing Albanians, need to stand up to their similarly hostile and narrow-minded political/military elites, and build a society within which there will be leaders to represent the regions in their local/regional self-government. Having two separate states that both don’t function properly is not necessary.
For all this, we all need to have a LOT of patience and energy to fight the easy-path of hatred, division and isolation. I say screw the EU elites, and their interests. I say screw our politicians. Let’s solve the “Kosovo question” on our own.

"Some people in here fail to activate the common sense. Do you guys know that, as shown in the past, for the EU it is more important Kosovo participation than Serbia's. This is why they make utmost to fulfil criteria of equality that Kosovo wants rather the insignificant and nonsense demand that Serbia requests" (PRN)

-- Hmm. From my side of your padded cell, I seem to recall Belgrade pushing for the Gymnich format, not resigning themselves to it. I also seem to recall Pristina being adamant about being represented as an equal state with full state symbols, not really caring about what other participants want. I also seem to remember that all that came out of Brdo meeting in Slovenia was Thaci raiding the buffet table before the entire conference broke up. It's nice that you're concerned with Belgrade's presence at these meetings, but it's a bit difficult to activate "the common sense" according to your axioms without a doctor's prescription.

I'm sure Frank the Bunny tells you all sorts of interesting things.

TomC - Well thank you at least for being so polite. It is appreciated.

Kosovo is not a state. It is a province as written in the UNSC Res. 1244 which was agreed upon to end the war in 1999. Under international law it still remains within Serbian boundaries.

Various outside parties can shape it how they will, but this is a fact.

Of course this does not mean that Serbia will somehow expect to take over the running of Kosovo. It will ultimately either become fully autonomous or will be partitioned, depending upon which solution is reached.

Kosovo declared independence while it was an international protectorate and they were under no threat at all from the new Serbian government in Belgrade. It was almost 10 years after any hostilities.

There were no legal grounds at all to just suddenly annex 15% of Serbia's territory while the province was being administered by the very body which assures Serbia's sovereignty. The UN and the EU both hold status neutral stances towards Kosovo.

The countries who have recognised (less than half of the UN nations) have all done so because of their own agendas or because of pressure from larger countries.

Apart from anything else the precedent of Kosovo being accepted as a state would have repurcussions around the world. Every ethnic group which had a majority population in an area could then claim independence.

"BTW, in most of Europe, Yugoslavia and Yugoslavs still exist in everydays'languange. The same with Czechoslovakia and Czechoslovaks, a country of wich more and more people (even in the succeeding countries) think it was a mistake to split it up. I am truely convinced that both countries deserve another chance. Hej, Sloveni...
(JS,"

The unifications of those lands was the barbaric act to begin with. There was no need of these fake unifications other than to turn Germany Austria Hungary and Italy into defending states, by the great powers, and dont even for a second act like Serbs had anything to do with the choice.

All the other hyped up pan slavik slogans, are unfortunatly as useless now as cube bowling balls.

Today progress, last years catastrophy. Dont blame the EU for not thinking that Yugo will survive.

Thank you for your answer, Kate. It would have been nice to hear what you understand a state to be according to international law, but Wikipedia will do.

I would say that Kosovo fulfills the requirements of a state, both according to the constitutive and the declarative theories of statehood.

Ben, you are jumping between threads just to personally try and insult me. I'm not going to stoop to your level, my friend.

(kate, 2 June 2010 23:00)

Kate: your ignorance in international law is not an insult it’s a fact.

You just copy and past some slogans form the Serbian politicians and think that's international law.


P.S. I have some criteria for friendship, you don’t fulfil not even one.

Kosovo declared independence while it was an international protectorate and they were under no threat at all from the new Serbian government in Belgrade. It was almost 10 years after any hostilities.

There were no legal grounds at all to just suddenly annex 15% of Serbia's territory while the province was being administered by the very body which assures Serbia's sovereignty. The UN and the EU both hold status neutral stances towards Kosovo.

The countries who have recognised (less than half of the UN nations) have all done so because of their own agendas or because of pressure from larger countries.

(kate, 3 June 2010 12:52)

Well there was no legal reason why Kosovo was taken from Albanians and given to Serbia 100 yrs ago either.

The legal ground is clear, Serbia does not uphold int'l law when it sent its army to terrorise K-Alb population. Serbia has a history of repressing and killing K-Alb population and being particulary hostile towards their existence.

Further, Kosovo's claim to statehood, amongst many valid claims, should be primarily anchored on the 'moral argument' of widespread state-sponsored killings which made Serbia's continued claim to sovereignty over Kosovo an untenable position. Note that the US's declaration of independence, long before there was any modern-day int'l law or an int'l org like the UN was based primarily on the idea of UK's colonial, repressive policy.

Serbia never was a responsible patron of Kosovo.

Thank you Kate for your interesting response. I'd like to add a few comments.

Your § 1: Nowhere in S/RES/1244 is it written that Kosovo is a province. The validity of S/RES/1244 as of June 2010 is not self-evident, given that a majority of the countries that voted for that resolution have modified their practices since. Also, the fact that a majority of European states (incl. a majority of the former republics of SFRY) have recognised the UDI supports that claim. Customary int'l law is an important source of int'l law.

§ 2: I would not talk about "outside" parties since these actions have been undertaken by 1) institutions representing the majority of Kosovo's population 2) regional actors, such as all of Kosovo's neighbours except for Serbia.

§ 4: Kosovo not being under threat is a questionable argument. Would the declarations of independence by the Baltic states have been more justified if there had been an imminent Soviet threat? I'd say they were legitimate declarations independently of the element of threat.

§ 5: The UN and EU have fairly little to say when it comes to int'l law. Public int'l law is essentially created by states through codification and practice. However, the ICJ's advisory opinion will be a source of law.

§ 6: In April it was reported that Montenegro is awaiting recognition from 72 states. That does not imply that one third of the world's countries explicitly deny the sovereignty of Montenegro. Holders of Serbian passports sometimes face difficulties at international borders when the Republic of Serbia is not on the list of states. In the end, that proves quite little about the sovereignty of those two countries.

§ 7: Obviously the advisory opinion of the ICJ will set the tone for future cases. As stated in my former post, there are still some criteria for statehood in int'l law, consequently every single case must first and foremost be approached as a sui generis.

Best regards,

Tom

Kate,
UNSC 1244 also states "taking into full account the Rambouillet Accords" which explicitly states "Kosovo will have the authority to make laws not subject to revision by Serbia or the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, including levying taxes, instituting programs of economic, scientific, technological, regional, and social development, conducting foreign relations within its areas of responsibility in the same manner as a Republic, and all matters of local government"

The unifications of those lands was the barbaric act to begin with. (toke, 2 June 2010 16:35)

No, it was not. During the Habsburg era, all Slavs were considered as 2nd class citizens. In both Czechoslovakia and Yugoslavia Slavs became again 1st class people for the first time since centuries. Even though the creation of both countries wasn't perfect, it certainly wasn't barbaric.

Dont blame the EU for not thinking that Yugo will survive.(toke, 2 June 2010 16:35)

I blame EU for nothing, I just think it was a mistake to deny Yugoslavia to enter the EU. The talks had already started and Yugoslavia was in a better economical situation than Greece.

@ Mike C.
Even within Yugoslavia there would be (and there was) more than enough space for proudness to be Serb or Croat or any other nationality. I know that Serbia didn't benefit from being part of Yugoslavia: southern Serbia became Macedonia and Serbia proper was partly divided in authonomous regions, while Croatia wasn't. Live isn't always fair, as we know.

But Yugoslavia was a country the rest of the world took notice of. It was important, it was big, it had an influence on things that happened in the rest of Europe/the world. Nowadays, all the succeeding countries can only see and wait for the plans other nations have with them.

Of course, some people might think that what I am writing here is nonsense. But, considered the comment ratings, some people do not.

Don't forget that Yugoslavia was a country people truely loved, with all the problems and imperfections it had. And that it still lives on in people's hearts, within the Western Balkans as much as beyond.

And of course, the 'reality on the ground' doesn't look like another Yugoslavia is about to happen. But then again, it wouldn't be the first time in history countries pop up or vanish from our maps within a day. It might be already tomorrow that we all wake up in another country. Belgrade has been the capital of more countries than just Serbia, the last century...

Further more I am convinced that a new Yugoslavia (or Serbocroatia, the land of the Serbocroats, Montenegrins included if they want) is the only way for Serbs to 'solve' the problem with the evergrowing population of Albanians in Kosovo. Either you give away Kosovo now (and keep no more than the north part, if you are lucky), either Albanians will become the majority within all of Serbia and 'Beogradi' might become just another city in Albania in 50-100 years. As might Shkupi in Macedonia.

As we know (I think) Serbs and Albanians have different views about what reality is. I think neither of them is wrong, they are just different and opposing. Even if Kosovo will remain a part of Serbia in this 'battle', do you, Serbs, think it would be the end of it? That Albanians will give up and become happy citizens of a part of Serbia? I don't think they will, to be honest.

So I think the choice will be one of the following: 1. Lose Kosovo and praise yourself happy with just the North; 2. Keep all of Kosovo, but be prepared for much more and much bigger trouble to come; 3. Create a reality in which Albanians will never be able to become a majority, give them their own place to live in and support them in creating it (read: don't treat them like they were treated within the SFRJ, since it got you where you are now).

I would choose option 3, I think. The problem of course is that nobody is asking me to choose. No other choice for me than make my own choice and bother people here with it. We never know what it might bring...

Kosovo declared independence while it was an international protectorate and they were under no threat at all from the new Serbian government in Belgrade. It was almost 10 years after any hostilities.(kate)
Isn't that like saying A woman has no grounds to divorce a husband who use to beat her until he was arrested because now that he is in jail she is under no threat.

Kosovo declared independence while it was an international protectorate and they were under no threat at all from the new Serbian government in Belgrade. It was almost 10 years after any hostilities.(kate)
Isn't that like saying A woman has no grounds to divorce a husband who use to beat her until he was arrested because now that he is in jail she is under no threat.
(doodah, 4 June 2010 14:08)

The husband's lack of concent can not keep the woman with him though. Although it's true that without husband's concent that woman will never get legal marriage, the legal marriage of her hostile husband with another woman is impossible too.
In analogy this means that without recognizing Kosovo, Serbia will never be part of EU. The attempt of Serbia to block Kosovo may have succeeded to some point but in long term it means blockade of Serbia too.