I think its a good idea from the old dude and unlike Mark, is not totally high. Cantonisation might very well work but first we need to kick out the Snake and Sejdiu as they are totally useless and corrupt. I would strongly favour bringing Tirana on board and having them and Belgrade having joint control over Kosovo. Its a compromise that may well work, like a condominium which has been also been mooted for Northern Ireland where the British and Irish governments assume joint control.
I think of what Mike, DimTuc and KU says makes alot of sense. Its definitley a runner and should be looked at. One thing is for sure is that the current situation is totally unfeasable in the medium to long term.
The way I see it there are 4 options on the table:
1) Belgrade recognises Pristina - not going to happen
2) Kosovo is reincorporated into Serbia - unlikely
3) Partition Kosovo between Serbia, Albania and Montenegro - likely but fairly slim
4) Cantonisation of Kosovo, joint authority between Belgrade and Tirana - definitley should be looked at.
ah ah ah ah!
let's do it and in 50years all serbia is albanian,just for demografic reason!
what a great idea this man has!
(lili, 17 February 2010 21:12)
Ej, looking at some girls in Pristina I would not mind to make demographic experiments. Will be the "result" Albanian or Russian or maybe Hungarian or American is an open question tough. To my excuse: men are usually focused on the "process", the girls on the "result".
i'm not buying the version of history according to which serbia alone is responsible for the break up of yugoslavia. there were political forces both within the country and outside of it that were more than happy to see it go. it is enough to say that croatia's answer to milosevic was tudjman to see that it was not only serbs who embraced nationalism. and if you look at the reasons why they did so you will discover that confusion played a huge role in it. and personally i have the impression montenegrins left the common state with serbia for opportunist reasons more than anything else.
the point is that people need to trust one another and need to accept the role each state will play in the region. looking towards big powers in order to screw your neighbours is not a good idea. on the other hand small countries in the region have to accept that bigger countries in the region will have more influence. the point is to work with the people from bigger countries towards more cooperation, not to see them as backward or aggressive nations that can't make no progress and blame them for all their problems.
There was a Yugoslavia which was built in this manner. But than Serbian nationalism came along, with the memorandums of intelectuals from Serbian Academy of Science and Art, remember in the 80s after Tito's death, and after them there was a Milosevic and everything went to flames.
Serbs proved they can't live with anyone else but themselves. Even Montenegrins feel threaten or overshadowed by Serbian nationalism, so they got the hell out.
Many Balkan nations, especially ex-Yugo nations see Serbia as a threat to their statehood and existence.
So yes, a Balkan confederate will be the best solution, but Serbia will be the main obstacle and it will be an unreliable member of this confederate.
the idea of a confederation of the balkans people is a very old one and everyone with their head on their shoulders will agree that this is the best solution for running the region. i also agree that a cantonisation is a good idea for territories that are ethnically mixed and people look to other countries as their own. kosovo is presently an international protectorate, so i do not see what they would lose by becoming a joint protectorate of serbia and albania. and who knows what future brings. perhaps people will one day realise what they have to gain by working together rather than looking towards washington or moscow for support and solutions. sounds good to me.
Ataman wrote:
"Do not need to talk about military - just combine the countries of exYU with Albania and Bulgaria and think about agricultural force they represent against Italy, or France. There isn't a single produce they can't pull out as better + cheaper."
The only smart thing i've read so far...
But as far as cantonization goes, it's been a 1000 year project in the making...
Many things can change in 50 years, so let's not say never...
Montenegro is the best answer to the confederation proposal. If Serbs don't want to live together with serbs forget about convincing other ethicities living together with the serbs.As for the cantonization thing the Norwegian gentleman forgot to mention Presevo valley.So it should be cantonization of Kosovo and Serbia(Sandzjak included also).
"As to the comment that Mike's suggestion on cantonisation is the same as partition, I think that misses the point. The K Serbs and Albanians are joined together by geography, like it or not. This form of internal cantonisation where the respective Serb and Albanian cantons are directly linked to Serbia and Albania but within a state of Kosovoa avoids the problem of drawing ridiculously messy international borders right through the middle of communities ending up with a bizarre patchwork as a border, and leaving bits of "Serbia" completely surrounded by "Albania"."
(Dim Tuc, 16 February 2010 18:40)
I was just reacting to a proposition about "cantonization", whose meaning was, I thought, to "eat away authority" from Pristina. I was just trying to point out that "authority cannot be eaten away", it can only be transferred, change physical address, Tirana instead of Pristina. Or stay where it is, Pristina. I was not talking about borders at all. The same post or another one later was also talking about "cantonization administered jointly by Tirana and Belgrade", leaving Pristina (read the representatives elected by the Kosovo Albanians) out, missing the point that neither Tirana nor Belgrade can administer anything, not even jointly, if the people in Kosovo do not agree. This is very simple, very very simple, but sometimes it is forgotten. I was answered with "OK, K-Albanians vote together with A-Albanians, and K-Serbs vote with S-Serbs". There Mike might have a deal from certain people, it sounds very much like unification to me. Does not have to involve borders, maybe political unification is possible without changing borders, or maybe not, who knows?
"...the politicians in Pristina, good or bad, were elected by their own people and are accountable to their people. Not quasi-legitimate, but totally-legitimate." (KU)
-- Only to the K Albanian side. I don't see why they couldn't continue in politics but at a lower level and completely off the grid of the Serb municipalities/cantons. The same applies for the K Serbs. Oliver Ivanovic could easily continue in politics in a fully Belgrade-administered Kosovska Mitrovica. They could certainly run for municipal elections, though I think people like Thaci would rather withdraw from politics and retire to some scenic villa in Shkoder or something like that. Whatever the case, such a scenario guarantees both sides will not be pressured by the other.
"Keep this up Mike and you might get very popular with that portion of Albanians advocating for unification of Kosovo with Albania. And by virtue of the Balkanian mirror phenomenon, you'd get very unpopular with that portion of the Serbs that...(fill in the blank)"
-- I dare say this is popular, and at the end of the day I'd honestly want all of Kosovo within Serbia. But that's just not going to happen, as Belgrade isn't making any effort at keeping a presence in places where Serbs are absent. I'm more with DimTuc on this: a pragmatic solution in which both sides can agree while simultaneously reducing the amount of instability an "independent" Kosovo brings with questionable sovereignty may require Belgrade and Tirana to take more active roles. As for additional places like Presevo or RS or wherever, we could always keep it clean by stating we're working with Kosovo *only*. Otherwise, we may very well (re)cantonize the region back into a Yugoslavia!
He is a expert? He seems to be a confused old man. Thinking about a confederation between Albania, Kosovo and Serbia shows that he does have no idea what happend in the past or he have the intention to bring the Albanians in Albania and Kosovo under the rule of Belgrade. His comments are so confusing. On the one side "no every country could join the EU" on the other hand Serbia have to join the EU. Following his logic the Albanians could only through Serbia join the EU. All what he said is so ridiculous.
"Fair is fair, right?"
(Mike, 16 February 2010 17:25)
Totally agree, fair is fair, if such a scenario ever happens. In your earlier post though you said:
"In fact I'd even say that would be a good thing since it eats away at Pristina's quasi-legitimate authority."
The quasi-legitimate authority you mention is something on which I don't agree, because the politicians in Pristina, good or bad, were elected by their own people and are accountable to their people. Not quasi-legitimate, but totally-legitimate. If those kind of Tirana-based elections ever happened, the same politicians would run again and be chosen or not, based on performance, campaign promises, or clients, etc etc, you know enough about elections.
One last point on your way of putting things in words, you say "eats away authority" and "Tirana-based elections", that means you think that some authority would go from Pristina to Tirana? In case of pan-Albanian elections, Tirana would be just a geographic notion, the place where parliament resides, not a different center of power, parallel or opposed to Pristina, or "eating" the authority of Pristina. "Tirana-based elections" then just means, again, that we are assuming the government, parliament, etc would just reside in Tirana and organize elections, but they would be the expression of the will of all Albanians in Kosovo and Albania.
Keep this up Mike and you might get very popular with that portion of Albanians advocating for unification of Kosovo with Albania. And by virtue of the Balkanian mirror phenomenon, you'd get very unpopular with that portion of the Serbs that...(fill in the blank) :).
PRN, your research is a bit out of date. Albanians came from the planet Alb on prisoner export space ships. They were used as slave labour to help build the Pyramids in Egypt. They were originally know as Alb Aliens, which changed to Albaliens and finally evolved into Albanians, which is what they called themselves as their alphabet didn't have the letter l or e in it.
(PRN, 16 February 2010 14:32)
This is one of the funniest posts that I've ever read here. This puts everything into an "Albanian perspective" which I had always been confused about. Little things....like the UDI, or the K-Albs democratic traditions, and of course, the true multi-ethnic cooperation and peaceful co-habitation with all people by the K-Albs. Thanks so much for the clarification.
The German-speaking, French-speaking and Italian speaking Swiss are Swiss. Not German, French or Italian.
(genc, 16 February 2010 13:27)
1) I don't see the point. There is Germany, France and Italy outside of Switzerland. But as much as I look, I can't find Albania, Bulgaria or Serbia outside of Balkan Peninsula.
The point is that there is Serbia and Albania outside Kosova (the cantons). Bulgaria has nothing to do with the present proposal. The Balkan Peninsula is actually only a geographic notion, not a political one.
Moreover, Swiss cantos look towards Bern, not Berlin/Vienna, Paris and/or Rome.
As for the rest, there is no time for confederations now (you yourself seem to acknoledge that in other postings). An Albanian-Serb confederation would have even less sense then a hypothetical Serbian-Croatian one. The geopolitical developpments are evolving in another direction.
Mike's solution could work. I think the only thing you could do in that situation is allow all people in Kosovo to participate in both the Serb and Albanian elections.
The only problem is what would this do for EU membership since nobody would know 100% where the borders of the 2 countries are? There is also the fact that the Serbs and Croats in Bosnia will surely demand the same thing if they see it's possible in Bosnia.
Mike your right on the money there, as is Gatalung, more or less. Only question is, if Serbia, Kosovoa and Albania, then why stop there?
As to the comment that Mike's suggestion on cantonisation is the same as partition, I think that misses the point. The K Serbs and Albanians are joined together by geography, like it or not. This form of internal cantonisation where the respective Serb and Albanian cantons are directly linked to Serbia and Albania but within a state of Kosovoa avoids the problem of drawing ridiculously messy international borders right through the middle of communities ending up with a bizarre patchwork as a border, and leaving bits of "Serbia" completely surrounded by "Albania".
In fact it works for the Albanians just as much as for the Serbs - in the current set-up K Albanians cannot even have the Albanian flag to officially represent them, nor anything suggesting Albanianness - the Kosovo "national" flag is the EU flag! Albanians barely even get a mention in the constitution. And not to mention the ICO that sits on top like a colonial king.
Indeed, this kind of set-up could also mean that Presevo Albanians could eventually be extended the same rights without this threatening Serbia's territorial integrity.
Confederal solutions are ideal for the Balkans, as Demaci was pushing in the 90's. Pity more can't think that way.
You have to love the Serbs. Out of 10,000 'experts' they find one that they like. Cantons will only serve to make Kosovo even more dis-functional. One law here, a different law 100m away and a canton might veto a huge project. No thanks. The West wants this over with, any new model will take 5 years just to negotiate, Serbia missed the partition boat.
As for federations others pointed it out that it didn't work among slavs, let alone between Albanians and Serbs. FYROM and Albanians maybe, simply because FYROM has no choice, too small to survive and too many Albanians there. Together we could make a 7-9 million strong country with access to the sea and the center of the Balkans.
"Only if Kosovo Albanians decide freely to participate in general elections together with all the Albanians of Albania. Otherwise you would have people governed by politicians they did not elect." (KU)
-- Well if a hypothetical cantonization of Kosovo were to take place and be jointly administered by Belgrade and Tirana on a canton-by-canton basis, it would be only natural for K Serbs to vote and participate in Belgrade-based elections, and for K-Albanians to vote and participate in Tirana-based elections. In addition, K-Serbs and K-Albanians would be completely entitled to electing their own muncipial governments that have links to Belgrade or Tirana respectively. Fair is fair, right?
"PS: just trying to think about some Swiss tradition, perhaps someone could help. Watch making? The banking secret? Chocolate?
(Felix, 16 February 2010 12:59) "
Janez,
Parts of that land you refer to were occupied by the Slavic tribes (among which guess who…?); some remained to their true owners. A part is even called the “Cradle” of your own nation. Now, you do the calculations.
As for the article itself, I think the idea of confederation will never be discussed, since all these countries will sooner or latter be under one bigger confederation called EU.
"Niether Kosova's police or army should spend money gaurding Serbian monuments. This is a huge waste of money."
Jay Hove
Don't you worry! They are not spending k-albanian money but their own. Kosovo doesn't have their own economy. And if you are not carefull you soon won't receive wellfare from Europe either.
I don't see anything wrong with such a scenario but I don't expect that ever happening in the Balkans. Our minds and souls have been poisoned by nationalism to the point where we are doomed for the next 50 or so years.
As a matter of fact it is more likely that we will see a few more microstates (RS, Vojvodina, Krajina) being born before we see a Balkan confederation.
The Ottoman curse will live on for another 500 years.
"I wouldn't really go as far as suggesting Serbia and Albania form a confederation, but more like Kosovo becomes the international mandate it is, and is jointly administered by Belgrade and Tirana on a canton by canton basis. Relations with Serbia and Albania are rather good."
(Mike, 16 February 2010 15:00)
Only if Kosovo Albanians decide freely to participate in general elections together with all the Albanians of Albania. Otherwise you would have people governed by politicians they did not elect. I hope you are not suggesting that, because it is a sure recipe for failure in the long run. If not, then are you suggesting a partition of Kosovo and unification of the two parts with Serbia and Albania? That does not have much chance of happening either.
Its simply amazing how the ancient Illyrian language has managed to survive, yet more amazing is the proud traditions left over from the Illyrians which impact all of the lives of the Balkan people on a daily basis.
(Vuk, 16 February 2010 13:16)
Havent you heard Vuk, the land of Illyria is a magical and enchanting place where polar bears roam free and the castles are made of chocolate.
Not a bad idea as far as I'm concerned, and the debate over Kosovo's cantonization came up more than once in the "status negotiations". Belgrade is obviously going to remain in Kosovo's Serbian enclaves for the indefinite future, but I've already argued that if Belgrade can do it, there's no reason why Tirana shouldn't. In fact I'd even say that would be a good thing since it eats away at Pristina's quasi-legitimate authority. I wouldn't really go as far as suggesting Serbia and Albania form a confederation, but more like Kosovo becomes the international mandate it is, and is jointly administered by Belgrade and Tirana on a canton by canton basis. Relations with Serbia and Albania are rather good.
Niether Kosova's police or army should spend money gaurding Serbian monuments. This is a huge waste of money. If NATO or the EU feels they should be gaurded than by all means do it. They are already being paid to be here, they might as well do something productive.
The issue of Serbian canton is Illyrian soil it doesnt work. Naturally Serbia is NOT Switzerland, but its roots are Carpathians.
(PRN, 16 February 2010 11:59)
--
PRN, your research is a bit out of date. Albanians came from the planet Alb on prisoner export space ships. They were used as slave labour to help build the Pyramids in Egypt. They were originally know as Alb Aliens, which changed to Albaliens and finally evolved into Albanians, which is what they called themselves as their alphabet didn't have the letter l or e in it.
Well I love this "international geniuses" like Johan Galtung of The Modern Peace and Conflict Studies who are making their money and career on the misery of our Balkan.
Did he just land altogether with this "fresh and enlightening stupid" idea of his all way from the green (or red) Planet called Mars?
Answer on his nebulosis would be: no thanks...not all of our braincells have been evaporated yet.
And yours, Mr. Galtung from the friendly planet M...?
The German-speaking, French-speaking and Italian speaking Swiss are Swiss. Not German, French or Italian.
(genc, 16 February 2010 13:27)
1) I don't see the point. There is Germany, France and Italy outside of Switzerland. But as much as I look, I can't find Albania, Bulgaria or Serbia outside of Balkan Peninsula.
2) The failed attempts did fail because either it was a strong outside force with malicious intent which did all to prevent it - or it was someone with malicious intent inside (or both, like 1998). We can accuse Stalin in 1946-48 and certain Western politicians + Milosevic for 1998.
2010 we do not really have anyone of above. USA did not happen overnight either. It took almost 100 years, few English interventions and a bloody and unjust civil war. The unification of Germany took 100 years + bloody German-French war + even more bloody two world wars.
From that perspective Balkan peninsula is still doing OK. Where I am mostly concerned is that unlike in Germany or USA in the process of country formation the entire industry on Balkan peninsula was either destroyed or sold out cheap.
That applies to everything: from nukes to blue jeans and IT.
Why would the two most different people of the Balkans stick together?
(ParTy Time, 16 February 2010 12:27)
Any other option? Ethnic picture changes from village to village. Let's make a Bizarristan where every single village should be a separate nation and declare they speak a different language than anyone else. Montenegro already set the precedent.
There is zero chance of this ever happening. The Southern Slavs in Yugoslavia had common roots, language, traditions and it failed. How do you expect a federation of Albanians and Serbs to work when they are radically different in nearly every way, add to that hundreds of years of tension and constant fighting. The people would never approve in the first place, the only road this will lead to that of war.
The best time to have a Balkan confederation was when Dimitrov was still alive.
(Tymi, 16 February 2010 12:06)
It is pretty logical because you can't go from village to village and set the borders that way. I like the idea of conflict solving this way because all parties need to feel, they essentially won.
The big problem: others would feel, such confederation is dangerous for their interests. Do not need to talk about military - just combine the countries of exYU with Albania and Bulgaria and think about agricultural force they represent against Italy, or France. There isn't a single produce they can't pull out as better + cheaper.
Within EU it wold be even worse for France/Italy/etc because they could not impose any tariff or quote. To feel the Dutch or Belgian "power" - try their (in)famous tomatoes.
"wishfull thinking for serbia since serbia is landlocked and need a port at sea."
oso
Serbia already has sea access in Montenegro. Remember it resently bought a port there.
Besides who needs sea access. It hasent helped Albanian to become a country worth mentioning.
Im impressed by your statistics they have successfully undermined your comment. Aparantly there are more Albanians than anyone else in the world, infact Albanian is now a compulsary language in not only Montenegro but also China. Its simply amazing how the ancient Illyrian language has managed to survive, yet more amazing is the proud traditions left over from the Illyrians which impact all of the lives of the Balkan people on a daily basis.
A Balcanic Confederation has been also proposed time and again, in 1948 and 1998, no chance. Moreover, if the trend is the EU integration, such a move has no sense.
Interesting idea that of the cantons, but bear in mind:
1. Switzerland is a Willensnation - a nation of will.
2. The German-speaking, French-speaking and Italian speaking Swiss are Swiss. Not German, French or Italian.
Not a bad idea. Unfortunatelly, such configuration will fail because all the countries around Kosovo are too much spoilied with mythology and historical bad experience. The question is if all the region is going to be part of EU, why we need a regional confederation. I am sure Serbia will never accept any idea in the next thousand years that K-Al and Albania will come together. Next "friends" for Albania agains this will be Greece unless t they get North Epirus. Last but not least where to put FYROM. Or in 50 years there will not be anymore FYROM, which from the demographic point of view will happen. The best time to have a Balkan confederation was when Dimitrov was still alive. Federation or confederation sounds nice, but cost a lot. In 50 year the region will be configured again after same heavy military conflicts.
"Unfortunatelly, such configuration will fail because all the countries around Kosovo are too much spoilied with mythology and historical bad experience."
How is Kosovo ANY different? Given that many Kosovo Albanians claims to continue Illyrian awesomeness and establish Greater Albania? Kosovo is just as guilty I would say.
Well, not sure about the "power" of Switzerland but to compare the tradition of Switzerland with the tradition of Serbia means that one does not understand, even in a basic way, the concept of tradition.
On the contrary, it seems that this was the very reason why the globalist forces used the US to attack Serbia in the first place: it actually has a Tradition, which stands in their way.
Greetings from Romania to our Orthodox brothers: keep well and don't give up your Tradition! What is being offered in exchange is a form of slavery.
PS: just trying to think about some Swiss tradition, perhaps someone could help. Watch making? The banking secret? Chocolate?
The Modern Peace and Conflict Studies founder Johan Galtung said that "Serbia, Kosovo and Albania will form a confederation".
Although I have read several pieces of work by mr. Galtung , his old age seems to have de-railed him.
It MIGHT have had a better chance to survive a Unification of Albania, Kosovo, Serbia and Macedonia and organise general election where 8m Albanians would rule over the 6,5 m Serbs, 1,2 M MAcedonian, 1 m Gypsies etc...
This would have paved the way for the return of 5m Albanians from Turkey and the rest of balkand would have been at peace.
The issue of Serbian canton is Illyrian soil it doesnt work. Naturally Serbia is NOT Switzerland, but its roots are Carpathians.
All in all looking at the roots of the problem the ONLY solution is the decolonisation, democracy and respect for human rights
The Modern Peace and Conflict Studies founder Johan Galtung said that "Serbia, Kosovo and Albania will form a confederation".
Although I have read several pieces of work by mr. Galtung , his old age seems to have de-railed him.
It MIGHT have had a better chance to survive a Unification of Albania, Kosovo, Serbia and Macedonia and organise general election where 8m Albanians would rule over the 6,5 m Serbs, 1,2 M MAcedonian, 1 m Gypsies etc...
This would have paved the way for the return of 5m Albanians from Turkey and the rest of balkand would have been at peace.
The issue of Serbian canton is Illyrian soil it doesnt work. Naturally Serbia is NOT Switzerland, but its roots are Carpathians.
All in all looking at the roots of the problem the ONLY solution is the decolonisation, democracy and respect for human rights
"wishfull thinking for serbia since serbia is landlocked and need a port at sea."
oso
Serbia already has sea access in Montenegro. Remember it resently bought a port there.
Besides who needs sea access. It hasent helped Albanian to become a country worth mentioning.
"Unfortunatelly, such configuration will fail because all the countries around Kosovo are too much spoilied with mythology and historical bad experience."
How is Kosovo ANY different? Given that many Kosovo Albanians claims to continue Illyrian awesomeness and establish Greater Albania? Kosovo is just as guilty I would say.
There is zero chance of this ever happening. The Southern Slavs in Yugoslavia had common roots, language, traditions and it failed. How do you expect a federation of Albanians and Serbs to work when they are radically different in nearly every way, add to that hundreds of years of tension and constant fighting. The people would never approve in the first place, the only road this will lead to that of war.
Well, not sure about the "power" of Switzerland but to compare the tradition of Switzerland with the tradition of Serbia means that one does not understand, even in a basic way, the concept of tradition.
On the contrary, it seems that this was the very reason why the globalist forces used the US to attack Serbia in the first place: it actually has a Tradition, which stands in their way.
Greetings from Romania to our Orthodox brothers: keep well and don't give up your Tradition! What is being offered in exchange is a form of slavery.
PS: just trying to think about some Swiss tradition, perhaps someone could help. Watch making? The banking secret? Chocolate?
Im impressed by your statistics they have successfully undermined your comment. Aparantly there are more Albanians than anyone else in the world, infact Albanian is now a compulsary language in not only Montenegro but also China. Its simply amazing how the ancient Illyrian language has managed to survive, yet more amazing is the proud traditions left over from the Illyrians which impact all of the lives of the Balkan people on a daily basis.
Why would the two most different people of the Balkans stick together?
(ParTy Time, 16 February 2010 12:27)
Any other option? Ethnic picture changes from village to village. Let's make a Bizarristan where every single village should be a separate nation and declare they speak a different language than anyone else. Montenegro already set the precedent.
A Balcanic Confederation has been also proposed time and again, in 1948 and 1998, no chance. Moreover, if the trend is the EU integration, such a move has no sense.
Interesting idea that of the cantons, but bear in mind:
1. Switzerland is a Willensnation - a nation of will.
2. The German-speaking, French-speaking and Italian speaking Swiss are Swiss. Not German, French or Italian.
Its simply amazing how the ancient Illyrian language has managed to survive, yet more amazing is the proud traditions left over from the Illyrians which impact all of the lives of the Balkan people on a daily basis.
(Vuk, 16 February 2010 13:16)
Havent you heard Vuk, the land of Illyria is a magical and enchanting place where polar bears roam free and the castles are made of chocolate.
Well I love this "international geniuses" like Johan Galtung of The Modern Peace and Conflict Studies who are making their money and career on the misery of our Balkan.
Did he just land altogether with this "fresh and enlightening stupid" idea of his all way from the green (or red) Planet called Mars?
Answer on his nebulosis would be: no thanks...not all of our braincells have been evaporated yet.
And yours, Mr. Galtung from the friendly planet M...?
Not a bad idea. Unfortunatelly, such configuration will fail because all the countries around Kosovo are too much spoilied with mythology and historical bad experience. The question is if all the region is going to be part of EU, why we need a regional confederation. I am sure Serbia will never accept any idea in the next thousand years that K-Al and Albania will come together. Next "friends" for Albania agains this will be Greece unless t they get North Epirus. Last but not least where to put FYROM. Or in 50 years there will not be anymore FYROM, which from the demographic point of view will happen. The best time to have a Balkan confederation was when Dimitrov was still alive. Federation or confederation sounds nice, but cost a lot. In 50 year the region will be configured again after same heavy military conflicts.
The issue of Serbian canton is Illyrian soil it doesnt work. Naturally Serbia is NOT Switzerland, but its roots are Carpathians.
(PRN, 16 February 2010 11:59)
--
PRN, your research is a bit out of date. Albanians came from the planet Alb on prisoner export space ships. They were used as slave labour to help build the Pyramids in Egypt. They were originally know as Alb Aliens, which changed to Albaliens and finally evolved into Albanians, which is what they called themselves as their alphabet didn't have the letter l or e in it.
"Niether Kosova's police or army should spend money gaurding Serbian monuments. This is a huge waste of money."
Jay Hove
Don't you worry! They are not spending k-albanian money but their own. Kosovo doesn't have their own economy. And if you are not carefull you soon won't receive wellfare from Europe either.
I don't see anything wrong with such a scenario but I don't expect that ever happening in the Balkans. Our minds and souls have been poisoned by nationalism to the point where we are doomed for the next 50 or so years.
As a matter of fact it is more likely that we will see a few more microstates (RS, Vojvodina, Krajina) being born before we see a Balkan confederation.
The Ottoman curse will live on for another 500 years.
The best time to have a Balkan confederation was when Dimitrov was still alive.
(Tymi, 16 February 2010 12:06)
It is pretty logical because you can't go from village to village and set the borders that way. I like the idea of conflict solving this way because all parties need to feel, they essentially won.
The big problem: others would feel, such confederation is dangerous for their interests. Do not need to talk about military - just combine the countries of exYU with Albania and Bulgaria and think about agricultural force they represent against Italy, or France. There isn't a single produce they can't pull out as better + cheaper.
Within EU it wold be even worse for France/Italy/etc because they could not impose any tariff or quote. To feel the Dutch or Belgian "power" - try their (in)famous tomatoes.
The German-speaking, French-speaking and Italian speaking Swiss are Swiss. Not German, French or Italian.
(genc, 16 February 2010 13:27)
1) I don't see the point. There is Germany, France and Italy outside of Switzerland. But as much as I look, I can't find Albania, Bulgaria or Serbia outside of Balkan Peninsula.
2) The failed attempts did fail because either it was a strong outside force with malicious intent which did all to prevent it - or it was someone with malicious intent inside (or both, like 1998). We can accuse Stalin in 1946-48 and certain Western politicians + Milosevic for 1998.
2010 we do not really have anyone of above. USA did not happen overnight either. It took almost 100 years, few English interventions and a bloody and unjust civil war. The unification of Germany took 100 years + bloody German-French war + even more bloody two world wars.
From that perspective Balkan peninsula is still doing OK. Where I am mostly concerned is that unlike in Germany or USA in the process of country formation the entire industry on Balkan peninsula was either destroyed or sold out cheap.
That applies to everything: from nukes to blue jeans and IT.
Not a bad idea as far as I'm concerned, and the debate over Kosovo's cantonization came up more than once in the "status negotiations". Belgrade is obviously going to remain in Kosovo's Serbian enclaves for the indefinite future, but I've already argued that if Belgrade can do it, there's no reason why Tirana shouldn't. In fact I'd even say that would be a good thing since it eats away at Pristina's quasi-legitimate authority. I wouldn't really go as far as suggesting Serbia and Albania form a confederation, but more like Kosovo becomes the international mandate it is, and is jointly administered by Belgrade and Tirana on a canton by canton basis. Relations with Serbia and Albania are rather good.
The German-speaking, French-speaking and Italian speaking Swiss are Swiss. Not German, French or Italian.
(genc, 16 February 2010 13:27)
1) I don't see the point. There is Germany, France and Italy outside of Switzerland. But as much as I look, I can't find Albania, Bulgaria or Serbia outside of Balkan Peninsula.
The point is that there is Serbia and Albania outside Kosova (the cantons). Bulgaria has nothing to do with the present proposal. The Balkan Peninsula is actually only a geographic notion, not a political one.
Moreover, Swiss cantos look towards Bern, not Berlin/Vienna, Paris and/or Rome.
As for the rest, there is no time for confederations now (you yourself seem to acknoledge that in other postings). An Albanian-Serb confederation would have even less sense then a hypothetical Serbian-Croatian one. The geopolitical developpments are evolving in another direction.
"Only if Kosovo Albanians decide freely to participate in general elections together with all the Albanians of Albania. Otherwise you would have people governed by politicians they did not elect." (KU)
-- Well if a hypothetical cantonization of Kosovo were to take place and be jointly administered by Belgrade and Tirana on a canton-by-canton basis, it would be only natural for K Serbs to vote and participate in Belgrade-based elections, and for K-Albanians to vote and participate in Tirana-based elections. In addition, K-Serbs and K-Albanians would be completely entitled to electing their own muncipial governments that have links to Belgrade or Tirana respectively. Fair is fair, right?
He is a expert? He seems to be a confused old man. Thinking about a confederation between Albania, Kosovo and Serbia shows that he does have no idea what happend in the past or he have the intention to bring the Albanians in Albania and Kosovo under the rule of Belgrade. His comments are so confusing. On the one side "no every country could join the EU" on the other hand Serbia have to join the EU. Following his logic the Albanians could only through Serbia join the EU. All what he said is so ridiculous.
Mike's solution could work. I think the only thing you could do in that situation is allow all people in Kosovo to participate in both the Serb and Albanian elections.
The only problem is what would this do for EU membership since nobody would know 100% where the borders of the 2 countries are? There is also the fact that the Serbs and Croats in Bosnia will surely demand the same thing if they see it's possible in Bosnia.
PRN, your research is a bit out of date. Albanians came from the planet Alb on prisoner export space ships. They were used as slave labour to help build the Pyramids in Egypt. They were originally know as Alb Aliens, which changed to Albaliens and finally evolved into Albanians, which is what they called themselves as their alphabet didn't have the letter l or e in it.
(PRN, 16 February 2010 14:32)
This is one of the funniest posts that I've ever read here. This puts everything into an "Albanian perspective" which I had always been confused about. Little things....like the UDI, or the K-Albs democratic traditions, and of course, the true multi-ethnic cooperation and peaceful co-habitation with all people by the K-Albs. Thanks so much for the clarification.
Mike your right on the money there, as is Gatalung, more or less. Only question is, if Serbia, Kosovoa and Albania, then why stop there?
As to the comment that Mike's suggestion on cantonisation is the same as partition, I think that misses the point. The K Serbs and Albanians are joined together by geography, like it or not. This form of internal cantonisation where the respective Serb and Albanian cantons are directly linked to Serbia and Albania but within a state of Kosovoa avoids the problem of drawing ridiculously messy international borders right through the middle of communities ending up with a bizarre patchwork as a border, and leaving bits of "Serbia" completely surrounded by "Albania".
In fact it works for the Albanians just as much as for the Serbs - in the current set-up K Albanians cannot even have the Albanian flag to officially represent them, nor anything suggesting Albanianness - the Kosovo "national" flag is the EU flag! Albanians barely even get a mention in the constitution. And not to mention the ICO that sits on top like a colonial king.
Indeed, this kind of set-up could also mean that Presevo Albanians could eventually be extended the same rights without this threatening Serbia's territorial integrity.
Confederal solutions are ideal for the Balkans, as Demaci was pushing in the 90's. Pity more can't think that way.
You have to love the Serbs. Out of 10,000 'experts' they find one that they like. Cantons will only serve to make Kosovo even more dis-functional. One law here, a different law 100m away and a canton might veto a huge project. No thanks. The West wants this over with, any new model will take 5 years just to negotiate, Serbia missed the partition boat.
As for federations others pointed it out that it didn't work among slavs, let alone between Albanians and Serbs. FYROM and Albanians maybe, simply because FYROM has no choice, too small to survive and too many Albanians there. Together we could make a 7-9 million strong country with access to the sea and the center of the Balkans.
"I wouldn't really go as far as suggesting Serbia and Albania form a confederation, but more like Kosovo becomes the international mandate it is, and is jointly administered by Belgrade and Tirana on a canton by canton basis. Relations with Serbia and Albania are rather good."
(Mike, 16 February 2010 15:00)
Only if Kosovo Albanians decide freely to participate in general elections together with all the Albanians of Albania. Otherwise you would have people governed by politicians they did not elect. I hope you are not suggesting that, because it is a sure recipe for failure in the long run. If not, then are you suggesting a partition of Kosovo and unification of the two parts with Serbia and Albania? That does not have much chance of happening either.
There was a Yugoslavia which was built in this manner. But than Serbian nationalism came along, with the memorandums of intelectuals from Serbian Academy of Science and Art, remember in the 80s after Tito's death, and after them there was a Milosevic and everything went to flames.
Serbs proved they can't live with anyone else but themselves. Even Montenegrins feel threaten or overshadowed by Serbian nationalism, so they got the hell out.
Many Balkan nations, especially ex-Yugo nations see Serbia as a threat to their statehood and existence.
So yes, a Balkan confederate will be the best solution, but Serbia will be the main obstacle and it will be an unreliable member of this confederate.
Niether Kosova's police or army should spend money gaurding Serbian monuments. This is a huge waste of money. If NATO or the EU feels they should be gaurded than by all means do it. They are already being paid to be here, they might as well do something productive.
"Fair is fair, right?"
(Mike, 16 February 2010 17:25)
Totally agree, fair is fair, if such a scenario ever happens. In your earlier post though you said:
"In fact I'd even say that would be a good thing since it eats away at Pristina's quasi-legitimate authority."
The quasi-legitimate authority you mention is something on which I don't agree, because the politicians in Pristina, good or bad, were elected by their own people and are accountable to their people. Not quasi-legitimate, but totally-legitimate. If those kind of Tirana-based elections ever happened, the same politicians would run again and be chosen or not, based on performance, campaign promises, or clients, etc etc, you know enough about elections.
One last point on your way of putting things in words, you say "eats away authority" and "Tirana-based elections", that means you think that some authority would go from Pristina to Tirana? In case of pan-Albanian elections, Tirana would be just a geographic notion, the place where parliament resides, not a different center of power, parallel or opposed to Pristina, or "eating" the authority of Pristina. "Tirana-based elections" then just means, again, that we are assuming the government, parliament, etc would just reside in Tirana and organize elections, but they would be the expression of the will of all Albanians in Kosovo and Albania.
Keep this up Mike and you might get very popular with that portion of Albanians advocating for unification of Kosovo with Albania. And by virtue of the Balkanian mirror phenomenon, you'd get very unpopular with that portion of the Serbs that...(fill in the blank) :).
Montenegro is the best answer to the confederation proposal. If Serbs don't want to live together with serbs forget about convincing other ethicities living together with the serbs.As for the cantonization thing the Norwegian gentleman forgot to mention Presevo valley.So it should be cantonization of Kosovo and Serbia(Sandzjak included also).
Janez,
Parts of that land you refer to were occupied by the Slavic tribes (among which guess who…?); some remained to their true owners. A part is even called the “Cradle” of your own nation. Now, you do the calculations.
As for the article itself, I think the idea of confederation will never be discussed, since all these countries will sooner or latter be under one bigger confederation called EU.
"As to the comment that Mike's suggestion on cantonisation is the same as partition, I think that misses the point. The K Serbs and Albanians are joined together by geography, like it or not. This form of internal cantonisation where the respective Serb and Albanian cantons are directly linked to Serbia and Albania but within a state of Kosovoa avoids the problem of drawing ridiculously messy international borders right through the middle of communities ending up with a bizarre patchwork as a border, and leaving bits of "Serbia" completely surrounded by "Albania"."
(Dim Tuc, 16 February 2010 18:40)
I was just reacting to a proposition about "cantonization", whose meaning was, I thought, to "eat away authority" from Pristina. I was just trying to point out that "authority cannot be eaten away", it can only be transferred, change physical address, Tirana instead of Pristina. Or stay where it is, Pristina. I was not talking about borders at all. The same post or another one later was also talking about "cantonization administered jointly by Tirana and Belgrade", leaving Pristina (read the representatives elected by the Kosovo Albanians) out, missing the point that neither Tirana nor Belgrade can administer anything, not even jointly, if the people in Kosovo do not agree. This is very simple, very very simple, but sometimes it is forgotten. I was answered with "OK, K-Albanians vote together with A-Albanians, and K-Serbs vote with S-Serbs". There Mike might have a deal from certain people, it sounds very much like unification to me. Does not have to involve borders, maybe political unification is possible without changing borders, or maybe not, who knows?
I think its a good idea from the old dude and unlike Mark, is not totally high. Cantonisation might very well work but first we need to kick out the Snake and Sejdiu as they are totally useless and corrupt. I would strongly favour bringing Tirana on board and having them and Belgrade having joint control over Kosovo. Its a compromise that may well work, like a condominium which has been also been mooted for Northern Ireland where the British and Irish governments assume joint control.
I think of what Mike, DimTuc and KU says makes alot of sense. Its definitley a runner and should be looked at. One thing is for sure is that the current situation is totally unfeasable in the medium to long term.
The way I see it there are 4 options on the table:
1) Belgrade recognises Pristina - not going to happen
2) Kosovo is reincorporated into Serbia - unlikely
3) Partition Kosovo between Serbia, Albania and Montenegro - likely but fairly slim
4) Cantonisation of Kosovo, joint authority between Belgrade and Tirana - definitley should be looked at.
"PS: just trying to think about some Swiss tradition, perhaps someone could help. Watch making? The banking secret? Chocolate?
(Felix, 16 February 2010 12:59) "
"...the politicians in Pristina, good or bad, were elected by their own people and are accountable to their people. Not quasi-legitimate, but totally-legitimate." (KU)
-- Only to the K Albanian side. I don't see why they couldn't continue in politics but at a lower level and completely off the grid of the Serb municipalities/cantons. The same applies for the K Serbs. Oliver Ivanovic could easily continue in politics in a fully Belgrade-administered Kosovska Mitrovica. They could certainly run for municipal elections, though I think people like Thaci would rather withdraw from politics and retire to some scenic villa in Shkoder or something like that. Whatever the case, such a scenario guarantees both sides will not be pressured by the other.
"Keep this up Mike and you might get very popular with that portion of Albanians advocating for unification of Kosovo with Albania. And by virtue of the Balkanian mirror phenomenon, you'd get very unpopular with that portion of the Serbs that...(fill in the blank)"
-- I dare say this is popular, and at the end of the day I'd honestly want all of Kosovo within Serbia. But that's just not going to happen, as Belgrade isn't making any effort at keeping a presence in places where Serbs are absent. I'm more with DimTuc on this: a pragmatic solution in which both sides can agree while simultaneously reducing the amount of instability an "independent" Kosovo brings with questionable sovereignty may require Belgrade and Tirana to take more active roles. As for additional places like Presevo or RS or wherever, we could always keep it clean by stating we're working with Kosovo *only*. Otherwise, we may very well (re)cantonize the region back into a Yugoslavia!
Ataman wrote:
"Do not need to talk about military - just combine the countries of exYU with Albania and Bulgaria and think about agricultural force they represent against Italy, or France. There isn't a single produce they can't pull out as better + cheaper."
The only smart thing i've read so far...
But as far as cantonization goes, it's been a 1000 year project in the making...
Many things can change in 50 years, so let's not say never...
i'm not buying the version of history according to which serbia alone is responsible for the break up of yugoslavia. there were political forces both within the country and outside of it that were more than happy to see it go. it is enough to say that croatia's answer to milosevic was tudjman to see that it was not only serbs who embraced nationalism. and if you look at the reasons why they did so you will discover that confusion played a huge role in it. and personally i have the impression montenegrins left the common state with serbia for opportunist reasons more than anything else.
the point is that people need to trust one another and need to accept the role each state will play in the region. looking towards big powers in order to screw your neighbours is not a good idea. on the other hand small countries in the region have to accept that bigger countries in the region will have more influence. the point is to work with the people from bigger countries towards more cooperation, not to see them as backward or aggressive nations that can't make no progress and blame them for all their problems.
the idea of a confederation of the balkans people is a very old one and everyone with their head on their shoulders will agree that this is the best solution for running the region. i also agree that a cantonisation is a good idea for territories that are ethnically mixed and people look to other countries as their own. kosovo is presently an international protectorate, so i do not see what they would lose by becoming a joint protectorate of serbia and albania. and who knows what future brings. perhaps people will one day realise what they have to gain by working together rather than looking towards washington or moscow for support and solutions. sounds good to me.
ah ah ah ah!
let's do it and in 50years all serbia is albanian,just for demografic reason!
what a great idea this man has!
(lili, 17 February 2010 21:12)
Ej, looking at some girls in Pristina I would not mind to make demographic experiments. Will be the "result" Albanian or Russian or maybe Hungarian or American is an open question tough. To my excuse: men are usually focused on the "process", the girls on the "result".
The Modern Peace and Conflict Studies founder Johan Galtung said that "Serbia, Kosovo and Albania will form a confederation".
Although I have read several pieces of work by mr. Galtung , his old age seems to have de-railed him.
It MIGHT have had a better chance to survive a Unification of Albania, Kosovo, Serbia and Macedonia and organise general election where 8m Albanians would rule over the 6,5 m Serbs, 1,2 M MAcedonian, 1 m Gypsies etc...
This would have paved the way for the return of 5m Albanians from Turkey and the rest of balkand would have been at peace.
The issue of Serbian canton is Illyrian soil it doesnt work. Naturally Serbia is NOT Switzerland, but its roots are Carpathians.
All in all looking at the roots of the problem the ONLY solution is the decolonisation, democracy and respect for human rights
Niether Kosova's police or army should spend money gaurding Serbian monuments. This is a huge waste of money. If NATO or the EU feels they should be gaurded than by all means do it. They are already being paid to be here, they might as well do something productive.
Well, not sure about the "power" of Switzerland but to compare the tradition of Switzerland with the tradition of Serbia means that one does not understand, even in a basic way, the concept of tradition.
On the contrary, it seems that this was the very reason why the globalist forces used the US to attack Serbia in the first place: it actually has a Tradition, which stands in their way.
Greetings from Romania to our Orthodox brothers: keep well and don't give up your Tradition! What is being offered in exchange is a form of slavery.
PS: just trying to think about some Swiss tradition, perhaps someone could help. Watch making? The banking secret? Chocolate?
"wishfull thinking for serbia since serbia is landlocked and need a port at sea."
oso
Serbia already has sea access in Montenegro. Remember it resently bought a port there.
Besides who needs sea access. It hasent helped Albanian to become a country worth mentioning.
"Unfortunatelly, such configuration will fail because all the countries around Kosovo are too much spoilied with mythology and historical bad experience."
How is Kosovo ANY different? Given that many Kosovo Albanians claims to continue Illyrian awesomeness and establish Greater Albania? Kosovo is just as guilty I would say.
Not a bad idea. Unfortunatelly, such configuration will fail because all the countries around Kosovo are too much spoilied with mythology and historical bad experience. The question is if all the region is going to be part of EU, why we need a regional confederation. I am sure Serbia will never accept any idea in the next thousand years that K-Al and Albania will come together. Next "friends" for Albania agains this will be Greece unless t they get North Epirus. Last but not least where to put FYROM. Or in 50 years there will not be anymore FYROM, which from the demographic point of view will happen. The best time to have a Balkan confederation was when Dimitrov was still alive. Federation or confederation sounds nice, but cost a lot. In 50 year the region will be configured again after same heavy military conflicts.
The issue of Serbian canton is Illyrian soil it doesnt work. Naturally Serbia is NOT Switzerland, but its roots are Carpathians.
(PRN, 16 February 2010 11:59)
--
PRN, your research is a bit out of date. Albanians came from the planet Alb on prisoner export space ships. They were used as slave labour to help build the Pyramids in Egypt. They were originally know as Alb Aliens, which changed to Albaliens and finally evolved into Albanians, which is what they called themselves as their alphabet didn't have the letter l or e in it.
Im impressed by your statistics they have successfully undermined your comment. Aparantly there are more Albanians than anyone else in the world, infact Albanian is now a compulsary language in not only Montenegro but also China. Its simply amazing how the ancient Illyrian language has managed to survive, yet more amazing is the proud traditions left over from the Illyrians which impact all of the lives of the Balkan people on a daily basis.
Its simply amazing how the ancient Illyrian language has managed to survive, yet more amazing is the proud traditions left over from the Illyrians which impact all of the lives of the Balkan people on a daily basis.
(Vuk, 16 February 2010 13:16)
Havent you heard Vuk, the land of Illyria is a magical and enchanting place where polar bears roam free and the castles are made of chocolate.
Not a bad idea as far as I'm concerned, and the debate over Kosovo's cantonization came up more than once in the "status negotiations". Belgrade is obviously going to remain in Kosovo's Serbian enclaves for the indefinite future, but I've already argued that if Belgrade can do it, there's no reason why Tirana shouldn't. In fact I'd even say that would be a good thing since it eats away at Pristina's quasi-legitimate authority. I wouldn't really go as far as suggesting Serbia and Albania form a confederation, but more like Kosovo becomes the international mandate it is, and is jointly administered by Belgrade and Tirana on a canton by canton basis. Relations with Serbia and Albania are rather good.
"Niether Kosova's police or army should spend money gaurding Serbian monuments. This is a huge waste of money."
Jay Hove
Don't you worry! They are not spending k-albanian money but their own. Kosovo doesn't have their own economy. And if you are not carefull you soon won't receive wellfare from Europe either.
"Only if Kosovo Albanians decide freely to participate in general elections together with all the Albanians of Albania. Otherwise you would have people governed by politicians they did not elect." (KU)
-- Well if a hypothetical cantonization of Kosovo were to take place and be jointly administered by Belgrade and Tirana on a canton-by-canton basis, it would be only natural for K Serbs to vote and participate in Belgrade-based elections, and for K-Albanians to vote and participate in Tirana-based elections. In addition, K-Serbs and K-Albanians would be completely entitled to electing their own muncipial governments that have links to Belgrade or Tirana respectively. Fair is fair, right?
Montenegro is the best answer to the confederation proposal. If Serbs don't want to live together with serbs forget about convincing other ethicities living together with the serbs.As for the cantonization thing the Norwegian gentleman forgot to mention Presevo valley.So it should be cantonization of Kosovo and Serbia(Sandzjak included also).
The best time to have a Balkan confederation was when Dimitrov was still alive.
(Tymi, 16 February 2010 12:06)
It is pretty logical because you can't go from village to village and set the borders that way. I like the idea of conflict solving this way because all parties need to feel, they essentially won.
The big problem: others would feel, such confederation is dangerous for their interests. Do not need to talk about military - just combine the countries of exYU with Albania and Bulgaria and think about agricultural force they represent against Italy, or France. There isn't a single produce they can't pull out as better + cheaper.
Within EU it wold be even worse for France/Italy/etc because they could not impose any tariff or quote. To feel the Dutch or Belgian "power" - try their (in)famous tomatoes.
Why would the two most different people of the Balkans stick together?
(ParTy Time, 16 February 2010 12:27)
Any other option? Ethnic picture changes from village to village. Let's make a Bizarristan where every single village should be a separate nation and declare they speak a different language than anyone else. Montenegro already set the precedent.
"...the politicians in Pristina, good or bad, were elected by their own people and are accountable to their people. Not quasi-legitimate, but totally-legitimate." (KU)
-- Only to the K Albanian side. I don't see why they couldn't continue in politics but at a lower level and completely off the grid of the Serb municipalities/cantons. The same applies for the K Serbs. Oliver Ivanovic could easily continue in politics in a fully Belgrade-administered Kosovska Mitrovica. They could certainly run for municipal elections, though I think people like Thaci would rather withdraw from politics and retire to some scenic villa in Shkoder or something like that. Whatever the case, such a scenario guarantees both sides will not be pressured by the other.
"Keep this up Mike and you might get very popular with that portion of Albanians advocating for unification of Kosovo with Albania. And by virtue of the Balkanian mirror phenomenon, you'd get very unpopular with that portion of the Serbs that...(fill in the blank)"
-- I dare say this is popular, and at the end of the day I'd honestly want all of Kosovo within Serbia. But that's just not going to happen, as Belgrade isn't making any effort at keeping a presence in places where Serbs are absent. I'm more with DimTuc on this: a pragmatic solution in which both sides can agree while simultaneously reducing the amount of instability an "independent" Kosovo brings with questionable sovereignty may require Belgrade and Tirana to take more active roles. As for additional places like Presevo or RS or wherever, we could always keep it clean by stating we're working with Kosovo *only*. Otherwise, we may very well (re)cantonize the region back into a Yugoslavia!
You have to love the Serbs. Out of 10,000 'experts' they find one that they like. Cantons will only serve to make Kosovo even more dis-functional. One law here, a different law 100m away and a canton might veto a huge project. No thanks. The West wants this over with, any new model will take 5 years just to negotiate, Serbia missed the partition boat.
As for federations others pointed it out that it didn't work among slavs, let alone between Albanians and Serbs. FYROM and Albanians maybe, simply because FYROM has no choice, too small to survive and too many Albanians there. Together we could make a 7-9 million strong country with access to the sea and the center of the Balkans.
"PS: just trying to think about some Swiss tradition, perhaps someone could help. Watch making? The banking secret? Chocolate?
(Felix, 16 February 2010 12:59) "
The German-speaking, French-speaking and Italian speaking Swiss are Swiss. Not German, French or Italian.
(genc, 16 February 2010 13:27)
1) I don't see the point. There is Germany, France and Italy outside of Switzerland. But as much as I look, I can't find Albania, Bulgaria or Serbia outside of Balkan Peninsula.
2) The failed attempts did fail because either it was a strong outside force with malicious intent which did all to prevent it - or it was someone with malicious intent inside (or both, like 1998). We can accuse Stalin in 1946-48 and certain Western politicians + Milosevic for 1998.
2010 we do not really have anyone of above. USA did not happen overnight either. It took almost 100 years, few English interventions and a bloody and unjust civil war. The unification of Germany took 100 years + bloody German-French war + even more bloody two world wars.
From that perspective Balkan peninsula is still doing OK. Where I am mostly concerned is that unlike in Germany or USA in the process of country formation the entire industry on Balkan peninsula was either destroyed or sold out cheap.
That applies to everything: from nukes to blue jeans and IT.
Well I love this "international geniuses" like Johan Galtung of The Modern Peace and Conflict Studies who are making their money and career on the misery of our Balkan.
Did he just land altogether with this "fresh and enlightening stupid" idea of his all way from the green (or red) Planet called Mars?
Answer on his nebulosis would be: no thanks...not all of our braincells have been evaporated yet.
And yours, Mr. Galtung from the friendly planet M...?
There was a Yugoslavia which was built in this manner. But than Serbian nationalism came along, with the memorandums of intelectuals from Serbian Academy of Science and Art, remember in the 80s after Tito's death, and after them there was a Milosevic and everything went to flames.
Serbs proved they can't live with anyone else but themselves. Even Montenegrins feel threaten or overshadowed by Serbian nationalism, so they got the hell out.
Many Balkan nations, especially ex-Yugo nations see Serbia as a threat to their statehood and existence.
So yes, a Balkan confederate will be the best solution, but Serbia will be the main obstacle and it will be an unreliable member of this confederate.
"I wouldn't really go as far as suggesting Serbia and Albania form a confederation, but more like Kosovo becomes the international mandate it is, and is jointly administered by Belgrade and Tirana on a canton by canton basis. Relations with Serbia and Albania are rather good."
(Mike, 16 February 2010 15:00)
Only if Kosovo Albanians decide freely to participate in general elections together with all the Albanians of Albania. Otherwise you would have people governed by politicians they did not elect. I hope you are not suggesting that, because it is a sure recipe for failure in the long run. If not, then are you suggesting a partition of Kosovo and unification of the two parts with Serbia and Albania? That does not have much chance of happening either.
I don't see anything wrong with such a scenario but I don't expect that ever happening in the Balkans. Our minds and souls have been poisoned by nationalism to the point where we are doomed for the next 50 or so years.
As a matter of fact it is more likely that we will see a few more microstates (RS, Vojvodina, Krajina) being born before we see a Balkan confederation.
The Ottoman curse will live on for another 500 years.
Janez,
Parts of that land you refer to were occupied by the Slavic tribes (among which guess who…?); some remained to their true owners. A part is even called the “Cradle” of your own nation. Now, you do the calculations.
As for the article itself, I think the idea of confederation will never be discussed, since all these countries will sooner or latter be under one bigger confederation called EU.
The German-speaking, French-speaking and Italian speaking Swiss are Swiss. Not German, French or Italian.
(genc, 16 February 2010 13:27)
1) I don't see the point. There is Germany, France and Italy outside of Switzerland. But as much as I look, I can't find Albania, Bulgaria or Serbia outside of Balkan Peninsula.
The point is that there is Serbia and Albania outside Kosova (the cantons). Bulgaria has nothing to do with the present proposal. The Balkan Peninsula is actually only a geographic notion, not a political one.
Moreover, Swiss cantos look towards Bern, not Berlin/Vienna, Paris and/or Rome.
As for the rest, there is no time for confederations now (you yourself seem to acknoledge that in other postings). An Albanian-Serb confederation would have even less sense then a hypothetical Serbian-Croatian one. The geopolitical developpments are evolving in another direction.
He is a expert? He seems to be a confused old man. Thinking about a confederation between Albania, Kosovo and Serbia shows that he does have no idea what happend in the past or he have the intention to bring the Albanians in Albania and Kosovo under the rule of Belgrade. His comments are so confusing. On the one side "no every country could join the EU" on the other hand Serbia have to join the EU. Following his logic the Albanians could only through Serbia join the EU. All what he said is so ridiculous.
Ataman wrote:
"Do not need to talk about military - just combine the countries of exYU with Albania and Bulgaria and think about agricultural force they represent against Italy, or France. There isn't a single produce they can't pull out as better + cheaper."
The only smart thing i've read so far...
But as far as cantonization goes, it's been a 1000 year project in the making...
Many things can change in 50 years, so let's not say never...
PRN, your research is a bit out of date. Albanians came from the planet Alb on prisoner export space ships. They were used as slave labour to help build the Pyramids in Egypt. They were originally know as Alb Aliens, which changed to Albaliens and finally evolved into Albanians, which is what they called themselves as their alphabet didn't have the letter l or e in it.
(PRN, 16 February 2010 14:32)
This is one of the funniest posts that I've ever read here. This puts everything into an "Albanian perspective" which I had always been confused about. Little things....like the UDI, or the K-Albs democratic traditions, and of course, the true multi-ethnic cooperation and peaceful co-habitation with all people by the K-Albs. Thanks so much for the clarification.
Mike your right on the money there, as is Gatalung, more or less. Only question is, if Serbia, Kosovoa and Albania, then why stop there?
As to the comment that Mike's suggestion on cantonisation is the same as partition, I think that misses the point. The K Serbs and Albanians are joined together by geography, like it or not. This form of internal cantonisation where the respective Serb and Albanian cantons are directly linked to Serbia and Albania but within a state of Kosovoa avoids the problem of drawing ridiculously messy international borders right through the middle of communities ending up with a bizarre patchwork as a border, and leaving bits of "Serbia" completely surrounded by "Albania".
In fact it works for the Albanians just as much as for the Serbs - in the current set-up K Albanians cannot even have the Albanian flag to officially represent them, nor anything suggesting Albanianness - the Kosovo "national" flag is the EU flag! Albanians barely even get a mention in the constitution. And not to mention the ICO that sits on top like a colonial king.
Indeed, this kind of set-up could also mean that Presevo Albanians could eventually be extended the same rights without this threatening Serbia's territorial integrity.
Confederal solutions are ideal for the Balkans, as Demaci was pushing in the 90's. Pity more can't think that way.
"Fair is fair, right?"
(Mike, 16 February 2010 17:25)
Totally agree, fair is fair, if such a scenario ever happens. In your earlier post though you said:
"In fact I'd even say that would be a good thing since it eats away at Pristina's quasi-legitimate authority."
The quasi-legitimate authority you mention is something on which I don't agree, because the politicians in Pristina, good or bad, were elected by their own people and are accountable to their people. Not quasi-legitimate, but totally-legitimate. If those kind of Tirana-based elections ever happened, the same politicians would run again and be chosen or not, based on performance, campaign promises, or clients, etc etc, you know enough about elections.
One last point on your way of putting things in words, you say "eats away authority" and "Tirana-based elections", that means you think that some authority would go from Pristina to Tirana? In case of pan-Albanian elections, Tirana would be just a geographic notion, the place where parliament resides, not a different center of power, parallel or opposed to Pristina, or "eating" the authority of Pristina. "Tirana-based elections" then just means, again, that we are assuming the government, parliament, etc would just reside in Tirana and organize elections, but they would be the expression of the will of all Albanians in Kosovo and Albania.
Keep this up Mike and you might get very popular with that portion of Albanians advocating for unification of Kosovo with Albania. And by virtue of the Balkanian mirror phenomenon, you'd get very unpopular with that portion of the Serbs that...(fill in the blank) :).
A Balcanic Confederation has been also proposed time and again, in 1948 and 1998, no chance. Moreover, if the trend is the EU integration, such a move has no sense.
Interesting idea that of the cantons, but bear in mind:
1. Switzerland is a Willensnation - a nation of will.
2. The German-speaking, French-speaking and Italian speaking Swiss are Swiss. Not German, French or Italian.
There is zero chance of this ever happening. The Southern Slavs in Yugoslavia had common roots, language, traditions and it failed. How do you expect a federation of Albanians and Serbs to work when they are radically different in nearly every way, add to that hundreds of years of tension and constant fighting. The people would never approve in the first place, the only road this will lead to that of war.
Mike's solution could work. I think the only thing you could do in that situation is allow all people in Kosovo to participate in both the Serb and Albanian elections.
The only problem is what would this do for EU membership since nobody would know 100% where the borders of the 2 countries are? There is also the fact that the Serbs and Croats in Bosnia will surely demand the same thing if they see it's possible in Bosnia.
"As to the comment that Mike's suggestion on cantonisation is the same as partition, I think that misses the point. The K Serbs and Albanians are joined together by geography, like it or not. This form of internal cantonisation where the respective Serb and Albanian cantons are directly linked to Serbia and Albania but within a state of Kosovoa avoids the problem of drawing ridiculously messy international borders right through the middle of communities ending up with a bizarre patchwork as a border, and leaving bits of "Serbia" completely surrounded by "Albania"."
(Dim Tuc, 16 February 2010 18:40)
I was just reacting to a proposition about "cantonization", whose meaning was, I thought, to "eat away authority" from Pristina. I was just trying to point out that "authority cannot be eaten away", it can only be transferred, change physical address, Tirana instead of Pristina. Or stay where it is, Pristina. I was not talking about borders at all. The same post or another one later was also talking about "cantonization administered jointly by Tirana and Belgrade", leaving Pristina (read the representatives elected by the Kosovo Albanians) out, missing the point that neither Tirana nor Belgrade can administer anything, not even jointly, if the people in Kosovo do not agree. This is very simple, very very simple, but sometimes it is forgotten. I was answered with "OK, K-Albanians vote together with A-Albanians, and K-Serbs vote with S-Serbs". There Mike might have a deal from certain people, it sounds very much like unification to me. Does not have to involve borders, maybe political unification is possible without changing borders, or maybe not, who knows?
the idea of a confederation of the balkans people is a very old one and everyone with their head on their shoulders will agree that this is the best solution for running the region. i also agree that a cantonisation is a good idea for territories that are ethnically mixed and people look to other countries as their own. kosovo is presently an international protectorate, so i do not see what they would lose by becoming a joint protectorate of serbia and albania. and who knows what future brings. perhaps people will one day realise what they have to gain by working together rather than looking towards washington or moscow for support and solutions. sounds good to me.
i'm not buying the version of history according to which serbia alone is responsible for the break up of yugoslavia. there were political forces both within the country and outside of it that were more than happy to see it go. it is enough to say that croatia's answer to milosevic was tudjman to see that it was not only serbs who embraced nationalism. and if you look at the reasons why they did so you will discover that confusion played a huge role in it. and personally i have the impression montenegrins left the common state with serbia for opportunist reasons more than anything else.
the point is that people need to trust one another and need to accept the role each state will play in the region. looking towards big powers in order to screw your neighbours is not a good idea. on the other hand small countries in the region have to accept that bigger countries in the region will have more influence. the point is to work with the people from bigger countries towards more cooperation, not to see them as backward or aggressive nations that can't make no progress and blame them for all their problems.
ah ah ah ah!
let's do it and in 50years all serbia is albanian,just for demografic reason!
what a great idea this man has!
(lili, 17 February 2010 21:12)
Ej, looking at some girls in Pristina I would not mind to make demographic experiments. Will be the "result" Albanian or Russian or maybe Hungarian or American is an open question tough. To my excuse: men are usually focused on the "process", the girls on the "result".
I think its a good idea from the old dude and unlike Mark, is not totally high. Cantonisation might very well work but first we need to kick out the Snake and Sejdiu as they are totally useless and corrupt. I would strongly favour bringing Tirana on board and having them and Belgrade having joint control over Kosovo. Its a compromise that may well work, like a condominium which has been also been mooted for Northern Ireland where the British and Irish governments assume joint control.
I think of what Mike, DimTuc and KU says makes alot of sense. Its definitley a runner and should be looked at. One thing is for sure is that the current situation is totally unfeasable in the medium to long term.
The way I see it there are 4 options on the table:
1) Belgrade recognises Pristina - not going to happen
2) Kosovo is reincorporated into Serbia - unlikely
3) Partition Kosovo between Serbia, Albania and Montenegro - likely but fairly slim
4) Cantonisation of Kosovo, joint authority between Belgrade and Tirana - definitley should be looked at.
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