Survey: Majority oppose Mladić arrest

“We Americans screwed up BIG TIME under Bush, but we can admit that. A lot of us would like nothing more than to see that guy spend the rest of his life in prison… (Nenad, 8 December 2009 18:35)”

Unfortunately only a small minority want to see Bush in prison, probably much smaller than the 25% of Serbs who support the arrest and extradition of Mladic. Bush killed hundreds of thousands, possibly a million, Iraqi civilians fighting Bin Laden in a country Al Qaeda didn’t exist. Whoooopsie! My bad! Take backs? Bush was at least smart enough to throw some simple corporals under the bus when Abu Graib happened.

Yes, a majority of Serbs oppose the extradition of Mladic to the Hague, because the majority does not believe the Hague to be fair, that’s why. That’s the same reason they don’t believe he’s guilty of everything the Hague is charging him with, they clearly think some of the charges are false, politically motivated or “not entirely intelligible”.

However, despite this severe distrust, a solid majority of Serbs believe Serbia SHOULD cooperate with the Hague.

That should tell you something about our character and I think that’s amazing.

Nenad,

I’m more inclined to think Srebrenica was the result of revenge killings by the local Serbian villagers whose villages were burned down by the masses of “civilians” following Oric around causing mass destruction in his path, than that of any genocidal plan originating in Belgrade. Not that it makes it any less horrific, it’s just what likely happened.

Did Mladic know? Doesn’t make a difference to me, he has command responsibility over what happens in the field. Were they civilians or paramilitary or an out of control mob that destroyed towns and villages? Doesn’t matter to me either, it’s against international law to execute either civilians or military or anyone like they did. I strongly support a truth and reconciliation program for the region.

So, yes, Mladic must answer for any and all crimes that may or may not have occurred under his watch.

But yeah, I’d feel a LOT better about the Hague if they hadn’t let Oric off the way they did. Two or three thousand Serbs were killed in the Srebrenica region by the citizens of Srebrenica. The Hague let Oric off for command responsibility because they said he couldn’t control the “masses” following him around burning down the villages.

Then they expect us to trust them? Silly really.

How did Srebrenica happen then?

Who committed the atrocities?

Who ordered them?

Who knew about them but failed to intervene?

Are the numbers, identity (Muslim vs. Serb) and manner of death really in dispute 14 years later?

Mladic was there. Could this have really happened without his knowledge or input?

Do people honestly believe Milosevic and Karadzic were out of the loop, or unable to influence events?

I'm not saying that other parties (Hague, EU, US, NATO, Muslims, Croats) are innocent. To some extent, they're all culpable. However, the guilt of others does not exonerate the senior political and military leadership of the Serbs.

Some think the trials should happen in Serbia. Well guess what? Most of the world has a serious problem with that -- no matter how messed up the Hague might be. Get over it and move on. You should have thought about all of this back in the late 80s and early 90s when you busy messing up your own country.

We Americans screwed up BIG TIME under Bush, but we can admit that. A lot of us would like nothing more than to see that guy spend the rest of his life in prison (and hopefully, some day we will). Why can't Serbs finally do the same and just admit that they were ruled by a bunch of psychopaths (as were the Croats and Muslims, but that's another story) in the 80s and 90s???

I mention my country and its recognition of a corrupt leader for the purposes of comparison.You behave as though Mladic, Karadzic etc can only be innocent by virtue of the fact that they're Serbian. Whenever their alleged crimes are argued by people from the West, for instance, your response is to brand the Hague as completely anti-Serb, or the the West as aggressors against the Serbian nation, or the Muslims, Croats and Albanians as the ones who were truly guilty in the wars.

Does the Hague behave in a sometimes anti-Serb fashion? Yes, but did you ever think there might be good reason for that? Do most of the people elsewhere in the world have a tendency to assign the majority of the blame to Serbs for what happened in the 90s? Yes, but again, consider the events.

We all know the other nations of former Yugoslavia carry much of the responsibility for what happened there. The Serbs weren't the only ones who committed crimes, and given what was done to them by Croats, Muslims and Albanians in the Second World War, we can even understand why they might be inclined to go to war again in the 90s. But this does not excuse mass murder.

We Americans took hundreds of years to recognize that slavery was unjust (sadly, some of us probably still think it was a good idea, but fortunately, most of us don't).

Mladic/Karadic and all other Serbs in the Hague are only guilty so that the West can justify its aggression against Serbia.

Matthew,
Very good unbiased post!

“Considering the magnitude of the Serbian massacre of Srebrenica, the 3.5 year siege of Sarajevo or the crimes committed by... does it really matter so much that some of the charges… might be politically motivated? (Nenad, 9 December 2009 17:04)”

Nenad,

According to ICTY 29.9% of those killed in the Bosnian war were Serbs. Serbs made up something like 34% of the population, so I’m not convinced the war was as terribly one sided as it was portrayed in the Western Media. These are Western numbers, not some nationalistic website, and I’ll cite sources directly.

http://hague.bard.edu/reports/Ewa_Tabeaupdf.pdf

“Contrary to taking the "high road", I am readily admitting that there are sick leaders in America”

Sadly, you and I are in the minority. More than 50% of Americans still think Iraq had something to do 9/11. At least Serbia had B92 to question the Milosevic regime, no one dared opposed Bush’s war of terror. Even Hollywood made a statement that they were going to support the “war” effort. I clearly remember it all, it was scary as hell.

If more than 50% of Americans think Saddam planned 9/11 how can you expect the average Serb to be any better informed than the average American?

As I said, I’m actually impressed with the numbers and pleasantly surprised at the amount of overwhelming support for cooperation with the Hague. I do not see this poll as supporting Mladic or Karadic as heroes. I see it much more as a condemnation of the Hague and everything about it.

AND INFACT Ratko is free and happy in Serbia..

Please disregard the latter part of my post. B92 has removed much of what I've written, rendering the last paragraph completely useless.

Matthew,

That's a fair response and I completely understand the intense animosity and distrust Serbs feel toward the ICTY. However, conventional world opinion has held -- and understandably so -- until more recently that Serbia has been unfit to try its own war criminals. There's no questions that the outcome of a number of trials (Oric and Haradinaj are two glaring examples) has been highly questionable, to say the least. And even if one could argue that the Serbian judicial system would handle cases more fairly than the Hague (again, most objective legal observers would view that argument with heavy suspicion), sometimes you just have to accept that the world isn't always fair.

Considering the magnitude of the Serbian massacre of Srebrenica, the 3.5 year siege of Sarajevo or the crimes committed by paramilitaries led by the likes of Arkan and Milan Lukic, does it really matter so much that some of the charges against Mladic, Karadzic and Milosevic might be politically motivated?

Let's look at the big picture. One guilty count alone should be enough to send any of these guys to prison for the rest of his life (now moot in the case of Milosevic).

I feel that Serbs have many fair arguments in their beef against the Hague, the US, NATO and so forth. But when it comes to someone like Mladic, is there truly reasonable doubt? Does it really matter that he'd be tried in Holland instead of Serbia?

To those who think I'm taking the "high road" because I'm American -- what nonsense! As if someone shouldn't be allowed to offer something other than a nationalist Serb opinion on this site.

I have no problem with the Serbian nation. Serbs are human beings just like everyone else. What I do have a problem with is the heroic treatment many of their sick leaders still receive from many Serbs today. Contrary to taking the "high road", I am readily admitting that there are sick leaders in America, too, and that someone like Bush or Rumsfeld is every bit as deserving of punishment as a Karadzic or Mladic. It would sadden me just as much to see the evil figures of the last American administration escape justice as it would to see the likes of Mladic and Karadzic do the same.

Best illustration that Hague "Justice" did not and will not help reconciliation in the Region which was one of its main goals.
This political and highly non-independent "Court" produced indeed and exactly just the opposite.

Nenad
In the first instance, who comprises of “in world opinion”. Don’t you mean the US and its lackeys? Who died and made them the arbiters of the world? Who is going to prosecute your US for the deaths of 500,000 children that died in Iraq due to sanctions placed by the US? Who is going to be prosecuted for the 100,000+ deads due to the US invasion of Iraq? Who is going to prosecute Donald Rumsfeld; George Bush; Colin Powell; Dick Chaney; Richard Perle; Paul Wolfowitch; Douglas Feith and many other Neo cons????
Let me repeat what Madeline Albright said on your NBC prior to the initial US invasion. She was asked “do you think that sanctions can be justified against Iraq considering that it has caused the death of 500,000 children”? Without even taking a breath she did not deny the numbers and said simply, “yes.
You see when people get cornered on an item that they don’t understand apart from what is being printed in newspapers or seen on TV then its…let’s look at the bigger picture..
Did your newspapers tell you that during the siege of Srebrenica and other UN safe havens the US would drop containers with “food and medicine” to the inhabitants? And that some of those containers ended up in Serbia due to prevailing winds and when opened they were full of arms and ammunition???
Did they also tell you that paramilitary units in Srebrenica went out and killed Serbs in surrounding villages??? Has your media told you that the first shots of the war were fired by Bosnian Moslems??? Has your media told you that the great Sarajevo market massacre was a fraud and that the UN investigation disclosed that the mortars could not have come from Serb positions due to the trajectory???
Has your media told you that on several occasions Serbs were prosecuted for the murder of Bosniaks only to find that these people were alive. One classic case was a Serb prosecuted for the murder of two brothers only half way through the trial they return from Sweden for a holiday – did you hear about that one?? No, well what a surprise!

What did you expect Serbs to do during the war? Sit down and let the Croats and Bosniaks kill them all?? When you give up all of the above plus Bill Clinton for sentencing in a court for crimes against humanity then come back to me with a request for Ratko Mladic. Your comparing Rumsfeld to Karadzic, Mladic or Milosevic; you have to be kidding, who did Ronny go to war to protect?? His wallet??
Unfortunately, most of your Americans tend to take the high road, but I suggest that you read less newspapers and watch less Fox news, and open your eyes a tad more.

(Nenad, 10 December 2009 02:44)

You have appoint, I have gone overboard with my comment and made it too personal, but I do get tired of people making uniformed statements about something that they have only read in newspapers or seen on TV. How many times have Serbs borne the brunt of Croat/Bosniak fascism? We lost 800,000 people in WW2 and we forgave. There are people still alive today that have had their entire families killed by these fascists – one in particular watched an Orthodox Church burn to the ground with his family inside. This guy is in his 80s and still alive.
So why should Serbs hand over Mladic when your people are not willing to hand over the others I mentioned? What makes the US so lofty and untouchable?
As you Americans are so religious here is a quote: “Do not try and remove a beam from your neighbor’s eye when you have a log in yours”.

So according to this poll, the majority of Serbs want that a war criminal guilty of genocide should stay free.

And you still wonder how he can "hide" in Serbia? It is unbelievable that after the horrors of the WW2, this is really happening in the present time, in the 21th century. I don't share that values and sincerely hope that the Netherlands will make sure that those "values" remain outside the civilized world.

This is not a matter of opinion - he has a case to answer and should stand up to answer it.

So according to this poll, the majority of Serbs want that a war criminal guilty of genocide should stay free.

And you still wonder how he can "hide" in Serbia? It is unbelievable that after the horrors of the WW2, this is really happening in the present time, in the 21th century. I don't share that values and sincerely hope that the Netherlands will make sure that those "values" remain outside the civilized world.
(John, 8 December 2009 23:51)


The results of the poll would actually be much higher, it’s probably closer to 80% rather than 64%. It just the current Serbian Government trying to lessen the shock for the EU.

The Australian Aborigines have a wonderful term called dreamtime. It refers to legends created to explain why the sky is blue; why rivers meander rather than run straight etc. In your case it’s the “holier than thou” attitude. Your west is so pure sugar would not melt in its mouth.

The west has intentionally murdered hundreds of thousands of people through their sanctions and wars under the banner of freedom and democracy and you have the abject gall to preach to anyone about high moral standards and the “Netherlands will make sure …..” I have said this many times before please don’t wear any haloes they have a habit of slipping around the wearers neck and choking them.

Watch and learn how your beloved Netherlands will in the next 12 months completely do a back flip on Serbia and then you can tell me about high morale grounds. If the past decade has not shown you that the west has little to no values itself then nothing will and remain ignorant.

No problem, Nenad - I disregarded all of your post. Taking the high road because you are American, does not sit well on a Serbian news site.

SJ,

So many assumptions about my sources of information and breadth of knowledge!

The fact that you attack me personally without knowing the slightest bit about me tells me everything I need to know.

Nonetheless, you have many valid points and I certainly understand your opposition to the Hague.

However, for the sake of peace and reconciliation, Mladic should be tried, and Serbs should accept that the course of justice is never perfect.

Nenad you're an american with a name like that? That's surprising!

The previous couple of American administrations should end up in jail but that wouldn't happen because they run the world.
It's the big guys against the small, so why is everyone treating the Serbs badly because we are a majority on our land. Of course we are going to protect our homes and fight against injustice.
The Srebrenica incident didnt occur out of the blue, Serbs were being killed/harrased by the Bosniaks non stop until Mladic arrived.

When NATO/US gets punished for killing 4000 civilians than they can send Serbs to Hague!

Matthew,

I hit the "thumbs up" button after reading your post.

I wasn't aware that the percentage of Americans who still register as "unopposed/supportive" to the Bush policy in Iraq was so high. I know there are a lot of ignorant people in this country -- too many ignorant people to make any theory of an early-90s anti-Serbian/Yugoslav policy plausible, by the way -- but I'd thought for sure that the number would have dropped below 50% by now. You're right: that is very sad. Shame on Americans.

This dialogue with you and SJ has been very helpful to me. It's got me thinking more about the Oric case, in particular, and as a result, I'm better able to understand why the ICTY is so unbearable for Serbs.

However, I just re-read the B92 article on the extradition poll, and more than 50% of respondents deem Mladic and Karadzic "not guilty" of the crimes contained in their respective indictment.

That is not the same thing as "likely guilty, but should't be tried at the Hague".

Prijatno!

Nenad

Unfortunately they did not ask whether they were guilty of crimes, only whether they were guilty of what the Hague was charging them with.

Thank you for the logical debate.

The survey doesn't show the opinion of ethnic Serbs but minorities also, so the number of ethnic Serbs supporting Mladic is probably closer to 85-90%. Either way, Serbs are on the right track regardless of what the West thinks. We have not bought your lies & we will get into EU under our terms. YOU HAVE FAILED to destroy the Serbs.

SJ,

Nema na cemu.

By the way, not all my information comes from papers -- I was in Krajina in 2002 and saw what the Croats left behind. And I know that the Muslims were suspected of shelling their own people in Sarajevo. And that the US smuggled weapons into the Safe Areas.

I also know about Jasenovac and the the Croat-Muslim coaltion against Serbs in BiH in the WWII.

So trust me, I can symphathize.

Vidimo se na B92.

Nenad

Nenad,what i want to know is what has any of this got to do with you or your country?

However, for the sake of peace and reconciliation, Mladic should be tried, and Serbs should accept that the course of justice is never perfect.
(Nenad, 10 December 2009 02:44)

Perhaps but not in Hague.

Every accusation against the US (justified or not) sounds like someone wiggling to avoid facing the implications of involvement in those atrocities.

The Hague is a message from the world that Serbia (and others) have to face up to these things.

Wiggling and arguing against the Hague is a way of not accepting the message being sent.

Imperfect as it might be, the Hague does a good job and its outcomes are visible to the world. It's job is to make those killings visible too - and it has been quite effective at doing that.

Mladic has a case to answer and should stand up to answer it rather than hiding away.

If you vote against this posting you are a wiggler too!

Mladic/Karadic and all other Serbs in the Hague are only guilty so that the West can justify its aggression against Serbia.

How did Srebrenica happen then?

Who committed the atrocities?

Who ordered them?

Who knew about them but failed to intervene?

Are the numbers, identity (Muslim vs. Serb) and manner of death really in dispute 14 years later?

Mladic was there. Could this have really happened without his knowledge or input?

Do people honestly believe Milosevic and Karadzic were out of the loop, or unable to influence events?

I'm not saying that other parties (Hague, EU, US, NATO, Muslims, Croats) are innocent. To some extent, they're all culpable. However, the guilt of others does not exonerate the senior political and military leadership of the Serbs.

Some think the trials should happen in Serbia. Well guess what? Most of the world has a serious problem with that -- no matter how messed up the Hague might be. Get over it and move on. You should have thought about all of this back in the late 80s and early 90s when you busy messing up your own country.

We Americans screwed up BIG TIME under Bush, but we can admit that. A lot of us would like nothing more than to see that guy spend the rest of his life in prison (and hopefully, some day we will). Why can't Serbs finally do the same and just admit that they were ruled by a bunch of psychopaths (as were the Croats and Muslims, but that's another story) in the 80s and 90s???

So according to this poll, the majority of Serbs want that a war criminal guilty of genocide should stay free.

And you still wonder how he can "hide" in Serbia? It is unbelievable that after the horrors of the WW2, this is really happening in the present time, in the 21th century. I don't share that values and sincerely hope that the Netherlands will make sure that those "values" remain outside the civilized world.

No problem, Nenad - I disregarded all of your post. Taking the high road because you are American, does not sit well on a Serbian news site.

AND INFACT Ratko is free and happy in Serbia..

Nenad,what i want to know is what has any of this got to do with you or your country?

The survey doesn't show the opinion of ethnic Serbs but minorities also, so the number of ethnic Serbs supporting Mladic is probably closer to 85-90%. Either way, Serbs are on the right track regardless of what the West thinks. We have not bought your lies & we will get into EU under our terms. YOU HAVE FAILED to destroy the Serbs.

Nenad you're an american with a name like that? That's surprising!

The previous couple of American administrations should end up in jail but that wouldn't happen because they run the world.
It's the big guys against the small, so why is everyone treating the Serbs badly because we are a majority on our land. Of course we are going to protect our homes and fight against injustice.
The Srebrenica incident didnt occur out of the blue, Serbs were being killed/harrased by the Bosniaks non stop until Mladic arrived.

When NATO/US gets punished for killing 4000 civilians than they can send Serbs to Hague!

Best illustration that Hague "Justice" did not and will not help reconciliation in the Region which was one of its main goals.
This political and highly non-independent "Court" produced indeed and exactly just the opposite.

Every accusation against the US (justified or not) sounds like someone wiggling to avoid facing the implications of involvement in those atrocities.

The Hague is a message from the world that Serbia (and others) have to face up to these things.

Wiggling and arguing against the Hague is a way of not accepting the message being sent.

Imperfect as it might be, the Hague does a good job and its outcomes are visible to the world. It's job is to make those killings visible too - and it has been quite effective at doing that.

Mladic has a case to answer and should stand up to answer it rather than hiding away.

If you vote against this posting you are a wiggler too!

I mention my country and its recognition of a corrupt leader for the purposes of comparison.You behave as though Mladic, Karadzic etc can only be innocent by virtue of the fact that they're Serbian. Whenever their alleged crimes are argued by people from the West, for instance, your response is to brand the Hague as completely anti-Serb, or the the West as aggressors against the Serbian nation, or the Muslims, Croats and Albanians as the ones who were truly guilty in the wars.

Does the Hague behave in a sometimes anti-Serb fashion? Yes, but did you ever think there might be good reason for that? Do most of the people elsewhere in the world have a tendency to assign the majority of the blame to Serbs for what happened in the 90s? Yes, but again, consider the events.

We all know the other nations of former Yugoslavia carry much of the responsibility for what happened there. The Serbs weren't the only ones who committed crimes, and given what was done to them by Croats, Muslims and Albanians in the Second World War, we can even understand why they might be inclined to go to war again in the 90s. But this does not excuse mass murder.

We Americans took hundreds of years to recognize that slavery was unjust (sadly, some of us probably still think it was a good idea, but fortunately, most of us don't).

However, for the sake of peace and reconciliation, Mladic should be tried, and Serbs should accept that the course of justice is never perfect.
(Nenad, 10 December 2009 02:44)

Perhaps but not in Hague.

Nenad
In the first instance, who comprises of “in world opinion”. Don’t you mean the US and its lackeys? Who died and made them the arbiters of the world? Who is going to prosecute your US for the deaths of 500,000 children that died in Iraq due to sanctions placed by the US? Who is going to be prosecuted for the 100,000+ deads due to the US invasion of Iraq? Who is going to prosecute Donald Rumsfeld; George Bush; Colin Powell; Dick Chaney; Richard Perle; Paul Wolfowitch; Douglas Feith and many other Neo cons????
Let me repeat what Madeline Albright said on your NBC prior to the initial US invasion. She was asked “do you think that sanctions can be justified against Iraq considering that it has caused the death of 500,000 children”? Without even taking a breath she did not deny the numbers and said simply, “yes.
You see when people get cornered on an item that they don’t understand apart from what is being printed in newspapers or seen on TV then its…let’s look at the bigger picture..
Did your newspapers tell you that during the siege of Srebrenica and other UN safe havens the US would drop containers with “food and medicine” to the inhabitants? And that some of those containers ended up in Serbia due to prevailing winds and when opened they were full of arms and ammunition???
Did they also tell you that paramilitary units in Srebrenica went out and killed Serbs in surrounding villages??? Has your media told you that the first shots of the war were fired by Bosnian Moslems??? Has your media told you that the great Sarajevo market massacre was a fraud and that the UN investigation disclosed that the mortars could not have come from Serb positions due to the trajectory???
Has your media told you that on several occasions Serbs were prosecuted for the murder of Bosniaks only to find that these people were alive. One classic case was a Serb prosecuted for the murder of two brothers only half way through the trial they return from Sweden for a holiday – did you hear about that one?? No, well what a surprise!

What did you expect Serbs to do during the war? Sit down and let the Croats and Bosniaks kill them all?? When you give up all of the above plus Bill Clinton for sentencing in a court for crimes against humanity then come back to me with a request for Ratko Mladic. Your comparing Rumsfeld to Karadzic, Mladic or Milosevic; you have to be kidding, who did Ronny go to war to protect?? His wallet??
Unfortunately, most of your Americans tend to take the high road, but I suggest that you read less newspapers and watch less Fox news, and open your eyes a tad more.

Matthew,

I hit the "thumbs up" button after reading your post.

I wasn't aware that the percentage of Americans who still register as "unopposed/supportive" to the Bush policy in Iraq was so high. I know there are a lot of ignorant people in this country -- too many ignorant people to make any theory of an early-90s anti-Serbian/Yugoslav policy plausible, by the way -- but I'd thought for sure that the number would have dropped below 50% by now. You're right: that is very sad. Shame on Americans.

This dialogue with you and SJ has been very helpful to me. It's got me thinking more about the Oric case, in particular, and as a result, I'm better able to understand why the ICTY is so unbearable for Serbs.

However, I just re-read the B92 article on the extradition poll, and more than 50% of respondents deem Mladic and Karadzic "not guilty" of the crimes contained in their respective indictment.

That is not the same thing as "likely guilty, but should't be tried at the Hague".

Prijatno!

Nenad

So according to this poll, the majority of Serbs want that a war criminal guilty of genocide should stay free.

And you still wonder how he can "hide" in Serbia? It is unbelievable that after the horrors of the WW2, this is really happening in the present time, in the 21th century. I don't share that values and sincerely hope that the Netherlands will make sure that those "values" remain outside the civilized world.
(John, 8 December 2009 23:51)


The results of the poll would actually be much higher, it’s probably closer to 80% rather than 64%. It just the current Serbian Government trying to lessen the shock for the EU.

The Australian Aborigines have a wonderful term called dreamtime. It refers to legends created to explain why the sky is blue; why rivers meander rather than run straight etc. In your case it’s the “holier than thou” attitude. Your west is so pure sugar would not melt in its mouth.

The west has intentionally murdered hundreds of thousands of people through their sanctions and wars under the banner of freedom and democracy and you have the abject gall to preach to anyone about high moral standards and the “Netherlands will make sure …..” I have said this many times before please don’t wear any haloes they have a habit of slipping around the wearers neck and choking them.

Watch and learn how your beloved Netherlands will in the next 12 months completely do a back flip on Serbia and then you can tell me about high morale grounds. If the past decade has not shown you that the west has little to no values itself then nothing will and remain ignorant.

Please disregard the latter part of my post. B92 has removed much of what I've written, rendering the last paragraph completely useless.

(Nenad, 10 December 2009 02:44)

You have appoint, I have gone overboard with my comment and made it too personal, but I do get tired of people making uniformed statements about something that they have only read in newspapers or seen on TV. How many times have Serbs borne the brunt of Croat/Bosniak fascism? We lost 800,000 people in WW2 and we forgave. There are people still alive today that have had their entire families killed by these fascists – one in particular watched an Orthodox Church burn to the ground with his family inside. This guy is in his 80s and still alive.
So why should Serbs hand over Mladic when your people are not willing to hand over the others I mentioned? What makes the US so lofty and untouchable?
As you Americans are so religious here is a quote: “Do not try and remove a beam from your neighbor’s eye when you have a log in yours”.

SJ,

So many assumptions about my sources of information and breadth of knowledge!

The fact that you attack me personally without knowing the slightest bit about me tells me everything I need to know.

Nonetheless, you have many valid points and I certainly understand your opposition to the Hague.

However, for the sake of peace and reconciliation, Mladic should be tried, and Serbs should accept that the course of justice is never perfect.

“Considering the magnitude of the Serbian massacre of Srebrenica, the 3.5 year siege of Sarajevo or the crimes committed by... does it really matter so much that some of the charges… might be politically motivated? (Nenad, 9 December 2009 17:04)”

Nenad,

According to ICTY 29.9% of those killed in the Bosnian war were Serbs. Serbs made up something like 34% of the population, so I’m not convinced the war was as terribly one sided as it was portrayed in the Western Media. These are Western numbers, not some nationalistic website, and I’ll cite sources directly.

http://hague.bard.edu/reports/Ewa_Tabeaupdf.pdf

“Contrary to taking the "high road", I am readily admitting that there are sick leaders in America”

Sadly, you and I are in the minority. More than 50% of Americans still think Iraq had something to do 9/11. At least Serbia had B92 to question the Milosevic regime, no one dared opposed Bush’s war of terror. Even Hollywood made a statement that they were going to support the “war” effort. I clearly remember it all, it was scary as hell.

If more than 50% of Americans think Saddam planned 9/11 how can you expect the average Serb to be any better informed than the average American?

As I said, I’m actually impressed with the numbers and pleasantly surprised at the amount of overwhelming support for cooperation with the Hague. I do not see this poll as supporting Mladic or Karadic as heroes. I see it much more as a condemnation of the Hague and everything about it.

This is not a matter of opinion - he has a case to answer and should stand up to answer it.

“We Americans screwed up BIG TIME under Bush, but we can admit that. A lot of us would like nothing more than to see that guy spend the rest of his life in prison… (Nenad, 8 December 2009 18:35)”

Unfortunately only a small minority want to see Bush in prison, probably much smaller than the 25% of Serbs who support the arrest and extradition of Mladic. Bush killed hundreds of thousands, possibly a million, Iraqi civilians fighting Bin Laden in a country Al Qaeda didn’t exist. Whoooopsie! My bad! Take backs? Bush was at least smart enough to throw some simple corporals under the bus when Abu Graib happened.

Yes, a majority of Serbs oppose the extradition of Mladic to the Hague, because the majority does not believe the Hague to be fair, that’s why. That’s the same reason they don’t believe he’s guilty of everything the Hague is charging him with, they clearly think some of the charges are false, politically motivated or “not entirely intelligible”.

However, despite this severe distrust, a solid majority of Serbs believe Serbia SHOULD cooperate with the Hague.

That should tell you something about our character and I think that’s amazing.

Nenad,

I’m more inclined to think Srebrenica was the result of revenge killings by the local Serbian villagers whose villages were burned down by the masses of “civilians” following Oric around causing mass destruction in his path, than that of any genocidal plan originating in Belgrade. Not that it makes it any less horrific, it’s just what likely happened.

Did Mladic know? Doesn’t make a difference to me, he has command responsibility over what happens in the field. Were they civilians or paramilitary or an out of control mob that destroyed towns and villages? Doesn’t matter to me either, it’s against international law to execute either civilians or military or anyone like they did. I strongly support a truth and reconciliation program for the region.

So, yes, Mladic must answer for any and all crimes that may or may not have occurred under his watch.

But yeah, I’d feel a LOT better about the Hague if they hadn’t let Oric off the way they did. Two or three thousand Serbs were killed in the Srebrenica region by the citizens of Srebrenica. The Hague let Oric off for command responsibility because they said he couldn’t control the “masses” following him around burning down the villages.

Then they expect us to trust them? Silly really.

Matthew,
Very good unbiased post!

Matthew,

That's a fair response and I completely understand the intense animosity and distrust Serbs feel toward the ICTY. However, conventional world opinion has held -- and understandably so -- until more recently that Serbia has been unfit to try its own war criminals. There's no questions that the outcome of a number of trials (Oric and Haradinaj are two glaring examples) has been highly questionable, to say the least. And even if one could argue that the Serbian judicial system would handle cases more fairly than the Hague (again, most objective legal observers would view that argument with heavy suspicion), sometimes you just have to accept that the world isn't always fair.

Considering the magnitude of the Serbian massacre of Srebrenica, the 3.5 year siege of Sarajevo or the crimes committed by paramilitaries led by the likes of Arkan and Milan Lukic, does it really matter so much that some of the charges against Mladic, Karadzic and Milosevic might be politically motivated?

Let's look at the big picture. One guilty count alone should be enough to send any of these guys to prison for the rest of his life (now moot in the case of Milosevic).

I feel that Serbs have many fair arguments in their beef against the Hague, the US, NATO and so forth. But when it comes to someone like Mladic, is there truly reasonable doubt? Does it really matter that he'd be tried in Holland instead of Serbia?

To those who think I'm taking the "high road" because I'm American -- what nonsense! As if someone shouldn't be allowed to offer something other than a nationalist Serb opinion on this site.

I have no problem with the Serbian nation. Serbs are human beings just like everyone else. What I do have a problem with is the heroic treatment many of their sick leaders still receive from many Serbs today. Contrary to taking the "high road", I am readily admitting that there are sick leaders in America, too, and that someone like Bush or Rumsfeld is every bit as deserving of punishment as a Karadzic or Mladic. It would sadden me just as much to see the evil figures of the last American administration escape justice as it would to see the likes of Mladic and Karadzic do the same.

Unfortunately they did not ask whether they were guilty of crimes, only whether they were guilty of what the Hague was charging them with.

Thank you for the logical debate.

SJ,

Nema na cemu.

By the way, not all my information comes from papers -- I was in Krajina in 2002 and saw what the Croats left behind. And I know that the Muslims were suspected of shelling their own people in Sarajevo. And that the US smuggled weapons into the Safe Areas.

I also know about Jasenovac and the the Croat-Muslim coaltion against Serbs in BiH in the WWII.

So trust me, I can symphathize.

Vidimo se na B92.

Nenad