Ghosts of past endanger Macedonia's future

What is wrong with Macedonia? Why are they trying to say the only way to call ourselves Macedonian is if we prove we are related to the ancient Macedonians?

I am a Slav of slavic heritage and I am proud of that heritage. I am a Macedonian because my ancestors migrated into Macedonia where we formed our own identity just as the Bulgarians did in Bulgaria and the Serbs did in Serbia. All south Slavs are related and the only reason we formed different identities is because of the different circumstances we have all lived under. My family and people are closely related to both Serbs and Bulgarians but we are not Serbs or Bulgarians, we are regionally Macedonians.

The VMRO government is worse for the slavic Macedonian identity than the Greeks are. In fact, the Greeks would accept us if more people just admitted we are slavs and not antique macedonians, even if we still called ourselves Macedonians based on region, the Greeks would still accept us.

Now the VMRO government is saying Macedonians are not Slavs, not Greeks, well then what the hell are they? Now our own government is trying to tell me I am not Macedonian because I am a Slav. How retarded is that?

There is no way the Slavic- Macedonian-deniers will ever be able prove that they are related to ancient Macedonians, because they are not, so then what happens? If you have to be related to antiquity Macedonians to be Macedonians then what will VMRO claim we are once they realize we are ALL SLAVS? It is much safer and smarter and more peaceful to claim a Macedonian nationality based on region and a Slavic ethnicity based on race. Once this is done, then it would be impossible for anyone to question who we are or threaten our identity.

But apparently the truth does not fit the ambitions of our leaders. Until we get the corrupt, nationalistic anti-slavic slavs out of office, then the Macedonian identity, heritage and culture are doomed.

But let VMRO be as anti-macedonian slav as they want, but families like mine and many, many others will never let someone else tell us we are not Slavs nor Macedonians.

In England we still see fit to commemorate Stonehenge and our later Celtic history - even though these have little or nothing to do with the country's modern inhabitants, they are still part of the country's history. I see no difference in Macedonia's case. The Greeks should grow up.
(Anglo, 26 November 2009 16:59)

You are totally missing the point.

It's like saying that white Americans today have the right to claim Indian culture as their own simply because they live on that land now. Never mind they have nothing to do with Indian culture.
Or the white Australian of today has the right to claim Aboriginal culture as their own.

Macedonians living in that region now have nothing to do with ancient Macedonians at all. They have no right to claim that culture or part of history for themselves. They arrived on that territory way after Alexander the great.
They are in no way connected.

You have the right to claim your history because you are descendants of those people. Today's Macedonians are not.

To all Macedonians, wether from Slavic, Bulgarian, Albanian or Greek decent, let me say the following; Wake up to what your government is up to! They are playing games with your minds and are conning you all by directing the focus away from your massive economic problems. Instead on focussing on what really matters, they are trying to sell you a nationalist propaganda fob story to focus on, in order to make you forget your troubles. Don't buy into it. Be careful, because this tactic has been used by many previous nationalist governments of the past. Think the Nazis of Germany,when Hitler had every one believing that all their problems stemmed from the Jews, Slavs and other minorities, just as your government is blaming your ills on your neighbours and the Albanian population. Germany, in the 1930's, was suffering from the worst economic situation imaginable. Hitler came along and played his nationalist card and we all know where that lead to. Nobody needs this issue over identity, territory and names to escalate into an other Balkan war. We need to unite and face up that we are all living in Europe and that time is better spend fixing the economy and our lives.
Here is some food for thought.
My father is Greek, my mother Dutch,I was born in Germany and educated in England. My wife is Serbian and our daughter is a happy teener that speaks 4 languages and gets on with all people from all walks of life. What is the point? I see myself not as either one or an other but as a European, living in Europe. Macedonia is not Greek or Macedonian. Macedonia is Europe. If we can say that then, maybe, we are on the right path towards a better future. In the end it's the economy that matters and the future of our children.

Clinging on to an ancient ideal and claiming to stem from a highly sophisticated and culturally advanced super race and brainwashing your citizens into believing that.

Just accept the name Norhern-Macedonia, then you are already getting more then you are entitled to.

I hope for the people in FYROM that you pick a different government and befriend your neighbours, mainly to the south, they hold 2 keys (NATO and EU), otherwise Kosovo, Albania will race by you economically and you will become the odd one out.

Geni said:

"Peggy you still did not get it.
There are plenty of American Indians, and white, or black Americans that have a mixed blood.
Should a person that is a quarter Am. Indian be allowed to embrace the latter’s culture?

The same thing with the people of Macedonia today. Who knows how many of those Slavic speaking Macedonians might have “real” or ancient Macedonian blood in their veins."

That's the point. Can FYROMs trace their bloodline to ancient Macedonians. NO.
What they can do is trace their roots to Bulgaria, Serbia or even Turkey.

Now if you wish to disuss people mixing with each other all over the globe, we have a different disussion then.

Anglo is right; this is not 1939 when ideas about racial purity and ditto historical entitlements were still very much in vogue. It is 2009; time to grow up and move on.
(Jessie, 27 November 2009 17:27)

I am grown up thank you very much.

So let me get this straight. You are saying that a white American can claim Apache culture. I am not saying that he cannot join the Apache in his celebration or respect for his tribe but am saying that he cannot claim it for himself.

Please do answer this directly instead of telling me to grow up.

Are you saying that a white Australian who came over only yesterday can claim Aboriginal culture?
Again please address my question.

If you don't mind someone taking your culture I don't have any problems with it either, but since the Greeks who can prove thier connection and history mind then I support them in this.

I really don't care for people's statements like it's not 1939 but 2009. Yes, moving on is important but our history is just as important. There are some things we don't lose and should not lose in order to evolve.

When even recent history could be manipulated, what to say about the medieval or the anciant? Tito's partisans never drove the Bulgarian army out of Macedonia. During the war of courese Bulgaria occupied Macedonia(at first with great local support, later with indifference). But the army units ware small. So when Bulgaria declared war on Germany on the 8th of September 1944, the Germans had no problem to occupy Macedonia. Some of the Bulgarian soldiers managed to retreat to Bulgaria, some were captured by the Germans. Sagnificant Bulgarian army units reentered Macedonia in the first days of October 1944, but they acted with, not against Tito's partisans. The decision to establish a Macedonian state within Yugoslavia was taken by the Greate powere and Tito. The locals were never consulted. Yet the were happy about it at the time. The Serbization seased while the seanse of belonging to the Bulgarian nation was already weakened. There were ample conditions for the creation of a new nationality, the Macedonian. At first it was understood as a Slavic one - Neither Serb, nor Bulgarian. But later it started to search for ancient roots!

Peggy Wrote:
Macedonians living in that region now have nothing to do with ancient Macedonians at all. They have no right to claim that culture or part of history for themselves. They arrived on that territory way after Alexander the great.
They are in no way connected.

You have the right to claim your history because you are descendants of those people. Today's Macedonians are not.
(Peggy, 27 November 2009 00:46)

This might seem to be valid if only Albanians stopped trying to claim Illyrian ancestry - when 'EVERYONE' knows they are from the Near East - with a Language and culture totally alien to the regions' past or present.

As a greek I cannot agree more with the comment made by Joe Gjorgjiev, who at the bottom of this page states:

"In fact, the Greeks would accept us if more people just admitted we are slavs and not antique macedonians, even if we still called ourselves Macedonians based on region, the Greeks would still accept us."

and

"It is much safer and smarter and more peaceful to claim a Macedonian nationality based on region and a Slavic ethnicity based on race. Once this is done, then it would be impossible for anyone to question who we are or threaten our identity."

Indeed I believe in the greek origin of ancient Macedonians(based on religion, language, customs, names, inscriptions etc etc)
During the Ottoman empire, and for centuries, Macedonia as a region presented a mixture of ethnicities (no wonder why "macedonia" in spanish or italian means "mixed fruit salad"). Who can deny that people who live for centuries in Macedonia can be called Macedonians even if they are not connected to that ancient greek tribe?
I believe the solution with Greece is possible if people in FYROM decide to accept that they are "regionally" Macedonians.
No one has the right to keep the words "Macedonia" and "Macedonian" for itself.

At school for decades we are taught in geography lessons that in northern Greece we have 3 regions: Western Macedonia, Central Macedonia and East Macedonia. There is no official or unofficial term such as "Northern Macedonia".

I suggest that my northern FYROM neighbors keep this as a name of their country and Slavs as their ancestors

It is said to see how all the Balkan countries still live in myths and megalomania. I hope we will change.

Peggy you still did not get it.
There are plenty of American Indians, and white, or black Americans that have a mixed blood.
Should a person that is a quarter Am. Indian be allowed to embrace the latter’s culture?

The same thing with the people of Macedonia today. Who knows how many of those Slavic speaking Macedonians might have “real” or ancient Macedonian blood in their veins. On the other hand, how many of the modern Greeks have Slavic or Albanian blood? Modern anthropological theory tells us that identity formation processes and language adoption do not go hand in hand.
Therefore, the Macedonians do have also the right to call their country Macedonia if they want to.

The same thing with the Serbian – Albanian problem. The Slavs did mix with the Illyrians in Serbia, Montenegro, Croatia, Bosnia, etc. And for sure that there were Slavic originally people in Albania too.

@Steve
What do you mean Albanians are Middle Eastern originally? Can you give me any hypothesis presented by any decent scholar?

@ Terry
Excellent comment.
I do not understand why we are trying to divide Europe into camps, the east and the west?

In England we still see fit to commemorate Stonehenge and our later Celtic history - even though these have little or nothing to do with the country's modern inhabitants, they are still part of the country's history. I see no difference in Macedonia's case. The Greeks should grow up.

In England we still see fit to commemorate Stonehenge and our later Celtic history - even though these have little or nothing to do with the country's modern inhabitants, they are still part of the country's history. I see no difference in Macedonia's case. The Greeks should grow up.
(Anglo, 26 November 2009 16:59)

You are totally missing the point.

It's like saying that white Americans today have the right to claim Indian culture as their own simply because they live on that land now. Never mind they have nothing to do with Indian culture.
Or the white Australian of today has the right to claim Aboriginal culture as their own.

Macedonians living in that region now have nothing to do with ancient Macedonians at all. They have no right to claim that culture or part of history for themselves. They arrived on that territory way after Alexander the great.
They are in no way connected.

You have the right to claim your history because you are descendants of those people. Today's Macedonians are not.
(Peggy, 27 November 2009 00:46)

Peggy, you are the one missing the point here. Just as the average Englishman today has little if any DNA in common with the druids building the Stonehenge, the average Scot has more than 40% Norwegian DNA in their veins, there is no conclusive evidence to claim who were first in the Middle East or in Northern Scandinavia, I bet the average Greek has more DNA from the Eastern shores of the Bosporus than with the woods Alexander the Great marched out from. So what, what does it matter?

Anglo is right; this is not 1939 when ideas about racial purity and ditto historical entitlements were still very much in vogue. It is 2009; time to grow up and move on.

In England we still see fit to commemorate Stonehenge and our later Celtic history - even though these have little or nothing to do with the country's modern inhabitants, they are still part of the country's history. I see no difference in Macedonia's case. The Greeks should grow up.

In England we still see fit to commemorate Stonehenge and our later Celtic history - even though these have little or nothing to do with the country's modern inhabitants, they are still part of the country's history. I see no difference in Macedonia's case. The Greeks should grow up.
(Anglo, 26 November 2009 16:59)

You are totally missing the point.

It's like saying that white Americans today have the right to claim Indian culture as their own simply because they live on that land now. Never mind they have nothing to do with Indian culture.
Or the white Australian of today has the right to claim Aboriginal culture as their own.

Macedonians living in that region now have nothing to do with ancient Macedonians at all. They have no right to claim that culture or part of history for themselves. They arrived on that territory way after Alexander the great.
They are in no way connected.

You have the right to claim your history because you are descendants of those people. Today's Macedonians are not.
(Peggy, 27 November 2009 00:46)

Peggy, you are the one missing the point here. Just as the average Englishman today has little if any DNA in common with the druids building the Stonehenge, the average Scot has more than 40% Norwegian DNA in their veins, there is no conclusive evidence to claim who were first in the Middle East or in Northern Scandinavia, I bet the average Greek has more DNA from the Eastern shores of the Bosporus than with the woods Alexander the Great marched out from. So what, what does it matter?

Anglo is right; this is not 1939 when ideas about racial purity and ditto historical entitlements were still very much in vogue. It is 2009; time to grow up and move on.

What is wrong with Macedonia? Why are they trying to say the only way to call ourselves Macedonian is if we prove we are related to the ancient Macedonians?

I am a Slav of slavic heritage and I am proud of that heritage. I am a Macedonian because my ancestors migrated into Macedonia where we formed our own identity just as the Bulgarians did in Bulgaria and the Serbs did in Serbia. All south Slavs are related and the only reason we formed different identities is because of the different circumstances we have all lived under. My family and people are closely related to both Serbs and Bulgarians but we are not Serbs or Bulgarians, we are regionally Macedonians.

The VMRO government is worse for the slavic Macedonian identity than the Greeks are. In fact, the Greeks would accept us if more people just admitted we are slavs and not antique macedonians, even if we still called ourselves Macedonians based on region, the Greeks would still accept us.

Now the VMRO government is saying Macedonians are not Slavs, not Greeks, well then what the hell are they? Now our own government is trying to tell me I am not Macedonian because I am a Slav. How retarded is that?

There is no way the Slavic- Macedonian-deniers will ever be able prove that they are related to ancient Macedonians, because they are not, so then what happens? If you have to be related to antiquity Macedonians to be Macedonians then what will VMRO claim we are once they realize we are ALL SLAVS? It is much safer and smarter and more peaceful to claim a Macedonian nationality based on region and a Slavic ethnicity based on race. Once this is done, then it would be impossible for anyone to question who we are or threaten our identity.

But apparently the truth does not fit the ambitions of our leaders. Until we get the corrupt, nationalistic anti-slavic slavs out of office, then the Macedonian identity, heritage and culture are doomed.

But let VMRO be as anti-macedonian slav as they want, but families like mine and many, many others will never let someone else tell us we are not Slavs nor Macedonians.

Peggy you still did not get it.
There are plenty of American Indians, and white, or black Americans that have a mixed blood.
Should a person that is a quarter Am. Indian be allowed to embrace the latter’s culture?

The same thing with the people of Macedonia today. Who knows how many of those Slavic speaking Macedonians might have “real” or ancient Macedonian blood in their veins. On the other hand, how many of the modern Greeks have Slavic or Albanian blood? Modern anthropological theory tells us that identity formation processes and language adoption do not go hand in hand.
Therefore, the Macedonians do have also the right to call their country Macedonia if they want to.

The same thing with the Serbian – Albanian problem. The Slavs did mix with the Illyrians in Serbia, Montenegro, Croatia, Bosnia, etc. And for sure that there were Slavic originally people in Albania too.

@Steve
What do you mean Albanians are Middle Eastern originally? Can you give me any hypothesis presented by any decent scholar?

@ Terry
Excellent comment.
I do not understand why we are trying to divide Europe into camps, the east and the west?

It is said to see how all the Balkan countries still live in myths and megalomania. I hope we will change.

Peggy Wrote:
Macedonians living in that region now have nothing to do with ancient Macedonians at all. They have no right to claim that culture or part of history for themselves. They arrived on that territory way after Alexander the great.
They are in no way connected.

You have the right to claim your history because you are descendants of those people. Today's Macedonians are not.
(Peggy, 27 November 2009 00:46)

This might seem to be valid if only Albanians stopped trying to claim Illyrian ancestry - when 'EVERYONE' knows they are from the Near East - with a Language and culture totally alien to the regions' past or present.

When even recent history could be manipulated, what to say about the medieval or the anciant? Tito's partisans never drove the Bulgarian army out of Macedonia. During the war of courese Bulgaria occupied Macedonia(at first with great local support, later with indifference). But the army units ware small. So when Bulgaria declared war on Germany on the 8th of September 1944, the Germans had no problem to occupy Macedonia. Some of the Bulgarian soldiers managed to retreat to Bulgaria, some were captured by the Germans. Sagnificant Bulgarian army units reentered Macedonia in the first days of October 1944, but they acted with, not against Tito's partisans. The decision to establish a Macedonian state within Yugoslavia was taken by the Greate powere and Tito. The locals were never consulted. Yet the were happy about it at the time. The Serbization seased while the seanse of belonging to the Bulgarian nation was already weakened. There were ample conditions for the creation of a new nationality, the Macedonian. At first it was understood as a Slavic one - Neither Serb, nor Bulgarian. But later it started to search for ancient roots!

To all Macedonians, wether from Slavic, Bulgarian, Albanian or Greek decent, let me say the following; Wake up to what your government is up to! They are playing games with your minds and are conning you all by directing the focus away from your massive economic problems. Instead on focussing on what really matters, they are trying to sell you a nationalist propaganda fob story to focus on, in order to make you forget your troubles. Don't buy into it. Be careful, because this tactic has been used by many previous nationalist governments of the past. Think the Nazis of Germany,when Hitler had every one believing that all their problems stemmed from the Jews, Slavs and other minorities, just as your government is blaming your ills on your neighbours and the Albanian population. Germany, in the 1930's, was suffering from the worst economic situation imaginable. Hitler came along and played his nationalist card and we all know where that lead to. Nobody needs this issue over identity, territory and names to escalate into an other Balkan war. We need to unite and face up that we are all living in Europe and that time is better spend fixing the economy and our lives.
Here is some food for thought.
My father is Greek, my mother Dutch,I was born in Germany and educated in England. My wife is Serbian and our daughter is a happy teener that speaks 4 languages and gets on with all people from all walks of life. What is the point? I see myself not as either one or an other but as a European, living in Europe. Macedonia is not Greek or Macedonian. Macedonia is Europe. If we can say that then, maybe, we are on the right path towards a better future. In the end it's the economy that matters and the future of our children.

Geni said:

"Peggy you still did not get it.
There are plenty of American Indians, and white, or black Americans that have a mixed blood.
Should a person that is a quarter Am. Indian be allowed to embrace the latter’s culture?

The same thing with the people of Macedonia today. Who knows how many of those Slavic speaking Macedonians might have “real” or ancient Macedonian blood in their veins."

That's the point. Can FYROMs trace their bloodline to ancient Macedonians. NO.
What they can do is trace their roots to Bulgaria, Serbia or even Turkey.

Now if you wish to disuss people mixing with each other all over the globe, we have a different disussion then.

Clinging on to an ancient ideal and claiming to stem from a highly sophisticated and culturally advanced super race and brainwashing your citizens into believing that.

Just accept the name Norhern-Macedonia, then you are already getting more then you are entitled to.

I hope for the people in FYROM that you pick a different government and befriend your neighbours, mainly to the south, they hold 2 keys (NATO and EU), otherwise Kosovo, Albania will race by you economically and you will become the odd one out.

In England we still see fit to commemorate Stonehenge and our later Celtic history - even though these have little or nothing to do with the country's modern inhabitants, they are still part of the country's history. I see no difference in Macedonia's case. The Greeks should grow up.
(Anglo, 26 November 2009 16:59)

You are totally missing the point.

It's like saying that white Americans today have the right to claim Indian culture as their own simply because they live on that land now. Never mind they have nothing to do with Indian culture.
Or the white Australian of today has the right to claim Aboriginal culture as their own.

Macedonians living in that region now have nothing to do with ancient Macedonians at all. They have no right to claim that culture or part of history for themselves. They arrived on that territory way after Alexander the great.
They are in no way connected.

You have the right to claim your history because you are descendants of those people. Today's Macedonians are not.

Anglo is right; this is not 1939 when ideas about racial purity and ditto historical entitlements were still very much in vogue. It is 2009; time to grow up and move on.
(Jessie, 27 November 2009 17:27)

I am grown up thank you very much.

So let me get this straight. You are saying that a white American can claim Apache culture. I am not saying that he cannot join the Apache in his celebration or respect for his tribe but am saying that he cannot claim it for himself.

Please do answer this directly instead of telling me to grow up.

Are you saying that a white Australian who came over only yesterday can claim Aboriginal culture?
Again please address my question.

If you don't mind someone taking your culture I don't have any problems with it either, but since the Greeks who can prove thier connection and history mind then I support them in this.

I really don't care for people's statements like it's not 1939 but 2009. Yes, moving on is important but our history is just as important. There are some things we don't lose and should not lose in order to evolve.

As a greek I cannot agree more with the comment made by Joe Gjorgjiev, who at the bottom of this page states:

"In fact, the Greeks would accept us if more people just admitted we are slavs and not antique macedonians, even if we still called ourselves Macedonians based on region, the Greeks would still accept us."

and

"It is much safer and smarter and more peaceful to claim a Macedonian nationality based on region and a Slavic ethnicity based on race. Once this is done, then it would be impossible for anyone to question who we are or threaten our identity."

Indeed I believe in the greek origin of ancient Macedonians(based on religion, language, customs, names, inscriptions etc etc)
During the Ottoman empire, and for centuries, Macedonia as a region presented a mixture of ethnicities (no wonder why "macedonia" in spanish or italian means "mixed fruit salad"). Who can deny that people who live for centuries in Macedonia can be called Macedonians even if they are not connected to that ancient greek tribe?
I believe the solution with Greece is possible if people in FYROM decide to accept that they are "regionally" Macedonians.
No one has the right to keep the words "Macedonia" and "Macedonian" for itself.

At school for decades we are taught in geography lessons that in northern Greece we have 3 regions: Western Macedonia, Central Macedonia and East Macedonia. There is no official or unofficial term such as "Northern Macedonia".

I suggest that my northern FYROM neighbors keep this as a name of their country and Slavs as their ancestors