Thaci counting on Muslim recognitions

What muslim countries have to gain by recognizing Kosovo? Nothing. Recognizing Kosovo is not only siding with the United States, it is siding with a few major countries in the occidental part of the world with whom those Middle East countries have conflicts with. The world of international relations is based on power and you get power with money and support. In which recent conflict did the Countries of the middle-east side with the US ? None. The middle-eastern countries will stay indifferent to the Kosovo. They will not recognize it, they will just stay away from this whole box of pandora that has been open earlier this year. Another factor that will weight a lot in the balance is the fact that the Albanian Mafia controls the country, that the country is led by war criminals (Liberated because the witnesses dissapeared suddenly), and the other fact is that Kosovo is too much a center of scandal, instability and it is bad publicity for the Middle-East which will choose to leave this conflict in the hands of those that created it. The muslim countries are said to be 'Terrorists', but if you read well, 2 or 3 extremists countries are always mentionned, most of those countries are quiet and are not taking part to the conflicts which is very wise and basically in their beliefs and fundamental values. Did Kosovo showed those same values? No. Will Kosovo be recognized by the Muslim's world? No.

First Mr. Thaci, you did not get EU's help. EU as a body has not recognized you, only some countries which are in EU have.

Second, Indonesia, largest Muslim country refuses to recognize you, so I suspect that many other Muslim countries will follow their example.

Third, Albanians are always saying how they are not Muslim but Albanian first so I doubt this will sit well with most of the Muslim countries, particularly when yo are in bed with the US who they hate.

So, why do you think these Muslim countries will help you? What have you in common with them that you are willing to say openly?

I think Thaci might be engaging in some wishful thinking here. I can't see too many Muslim countries being very happy about Thaci's alliance with the "Great Satan" and the "crusaders" from Europe. Dream on Thaci.

Didn't "Thaci the police murderer" said that 6 months ago already? Who is he trying to fool?

Ohh, I forgot, the wave of recognitions will come soon! Before september 92 countries will have recognized "Kosova".... and the snake will be on interpols most wanted list for police murder...

mr thaci dilemma is being a very good friend of US which most muslims regard as their enemy. only to gain its independence kosovo traded its muslim alliance to US. this is why up to now no muslim country except albanian and turkey which is understandable recognized kosovo. THIS IS NOT ABOUT RELIGION my friends. it is about principles. and muslim world is intelligent.

I don't believe the Muslim world views the Kosovo issue as religion but rather political - meaning siding with the US and that seems to be where the reluctance lies.
Also, with the Kosovo precendent spilling over into Georgia, that is further reason to respect international law and internationally recognised borders as many Muslim nations have their own issues.
There is obvious and strong resistance against Kosovo recognition and I cannot see this shifting anytime soon - if ever.
Lets see what happens at the end of this month as the next wave of recognitions was supposed to occur in August. It has been fairly quiet this month so far!

Thaci!! please tell that to indonesia, malaysia, Egypt, Sudan, Algeria, Iran, Iraq,Kazahkstan, Libya and many others.

Most muslim countries does not see this as a religious issue but a political one and most are for international law and order

I'm not exactly sure what Thaci's motives for saying what he said are. This is the man who boasted he had this list of "100 countries" ready to recognize this parastate within the first 48 hours of secession. To date, we have 45 countries (many of them begrudgingly and at the behest of the US, Britain, and Germany). It seems many of these Muslim countries aren't interested in recognizing what it little more than an international protectorate sponsored by the US. And to say that Kosovo is an independent and soveriegn country is completely ridiculous since it is utterly dependent on foreign aid and military security - not to mention a third of its territory not even recognizing the institutions propped up in Pristina. I'm beginning to think the real reason he and his partner in crime Sejdiu went to Washington last month was to take a lesson in political spin doctoring from the Karl Rove machine that has so successfully encased the Bush Administration in the halcyonic bubble it also acts in. It's one thing to keep a stiff upper lip in the face of difficult times. It's hallucinogenic to take a potato wagon and call it a luxury automobile.

someone asked about in what Albanian believe in?
You have to be an Albanian to understand.. we believe in ourselves first, our own culture first, our own people and heritage first and freedom of Albanians first. We will not rest till we achieve all kind of freedoms.

Abdul Aziz- if you really are a Muslim- can you see what we have had to put up with? I sill don't know what they believe in.
(Milan, 19 August 2008 15:39)

Milan,
If you don’t know by now, you will never know. Albanians believe in freedom. This is the only religion worth to believe in.
In 3000 years civilization, except some pirate fight with roman ships each we paid the hardest price from Roman Empire, Albanians never have started any war. Check the history and educate yourself. Regarding the religion, Constantine I, an Illyrian Emperor in Roman Empire, founded Constantinople and Orthodox religion. Religion, like politics is a way the government is organized; it is the way the spiritual believe is organized. Who play “a big ball” with religion is going to be burn in a “religion hell”. Albanians often have treated religion believe as it should be treated, as an individual choice of believe.
Here can be clear why Serbian politics always swinging between portraying Kosovo as paradise of “Islamic terrorists” to scare Western from supporting the freedom of Kosovo, and now as non-Muslim Kosovo, big friend of anti-Muslim US and Europe.
It is abut time when those fairy tales are going to be old and none will believe on those even Serbian people.

Well this one is for Mr. Milan.
What do you want us to learn from the God fearing Muslims, maybe how to disrespect our woman, isolate our country from the world, and not to mention killing innocent children in the name of what??? GIVE ME A BREAK. the same muslims kept us 500 years in prison, the same muslims killed our culture, and people. Let me give you a pice of an advice, THE FREE WORLD wants democracy not and freedom, join the club or close yourself behind your religious WALL.

Abdul Aziz said ...

"this is why up to now no muslim country except albanian and turkey which is understandable recognized kosovo. THIS IS NOT ABOUT RELIGION my friends. it is about principles. and muslim world is intelligent."
--------------------------

But of course it is. We see examples of this intelligence every day. Your "muslim world" is an embarrassment to Islam. Ironically, Turkey and Albania...and Kosovo are among the very few countries with a Muslim majority population and no official religion. It explains why the head of the Greek Orthodox Church is in Instanbul and why Albania is a religious free-for-all. How's that for following Koranic principles?

As far as I'm concerned, Kosovo should not go for numbers, but for quality. You don't want to owe debts to countries that have nothing to contribute to the world but dogmatism, violence and backwardness (social, moral, and economical).

My advice to Thaci is to stick with the "crusaders", the "great Satan", and those Muslim countries that share our understanding of religion's place in society, and stir away from the "angels" of the East who still debate how many virgins you get when you go to paradise and whose technological contribution to the world is the suicide bomber and roadside mines.

We, the Albanians in Kosovo, are more than 80% Muslims, but mature and appreceited by the West in general.

Obvisouly, we differ from the Muslim world in the Middle East, BUT we cannot deny what we are. Denying identity is lying self for self interests, which again doesn't make us being liked more than what we are.

Albanians are above all very kind, human, generous, very hospitable and non-threatening/invading-nation. History has shown this.

all the countries that have not recognised Kosovo so far have not done so not becouse of the great love they have for Serbia,but becouse this countries have semi-colonial structures themselfs and they fear the people they master,nor do this countries care about Serb-Albanian relations.As neither of us can terminate the other totally we have to learn to live as good neighbours even if for the sake of our children.

"We Albanians are not Muslim, let the Muslim countries stick this into their minds. We dont need their recognitions, they mean nothing to us.
(Albanicum, 19 August 2008 14:07)

Now Albanicum unless you are some 13 year old kid you really have a lot of growing up to do. Same goes to 'Freeman' You would do well to learn from God fearing Muslims and substitute the reverence you have for the US/EU/NATO to some other unearthly power.

What are you going to do when America is defeated? This time is coming- maybe then you will all of a sudden become devout and call onthe Muslim world to defend you.

Abdul Aziz- if you really are a Muslim- can you see what we have had to put up with? I sill don't know what they believe in.

Milan, that is clasic mate, we may be young nation but we are not naive. Great things can be expected from both of them, am afraid we cannot say the same for you...!
on a nother note, another clasic case, look what albanians done to us, we are the saviours/angels and you all must beleive us.
M, 19 August 2008 16:45)

Sorry "M" I have no idea what you mean here? I take it your American.


GIVE ME A BREAK. the same muslims kept us 500 years in prison, the same muslims killed our culture, and people. Let me give you a pice of an advice, THE FREE WORLD wants democracy not and freedom, join the club or close yourself behind your religious WALL.
(Freeman, 19 August 2008 17:04)
Freeman- I always like this. First it was the Romans, the Serbs/Slavs, then Turks, then Serbs when will it be the USA/EU that has supressed you and killed your culture? I keep asking Albanians why the animosity to Turks? Who made you change your religion and why didn't we Serbs? If your civilisation was so old as you claim- wouldn't you have held onto it more dearly? The answer is no- because you actually came with the Turks and you change your tune to whoever alse comes along.
The K-Albanians are a long way from true freedom loving people like the Kurds- you don't see them waving Stars/Stripe/EU/NATO flags. Freeman "Freedom and democracy" comes from sacrifice- up until now you keep getting silver spoons of it.
If K-Albanians truly battled Serbs rather then got others to do it- at least there would be respect.

(Jovan, 20 August 2008 21:40)

When the Serbs will stop speaking about things that have no clue about?

Kanun is the TANGIBLE asset that Albanians NEVER obeyed the INVADORS.

It is the MANIFEST of OUR INDEPENDENCE: WE WILL NEVER OBEY YOUR LAWS (of invaders) BUT ONLY AND ONLY TO OUR LAWS to our KANUN.

This is Kanuan dear Jovan- something that you never had. You alleged resistance to invaders is only your words- NOTHING TANGIBLE, like it or not this is the truth.

Law as the KANUN are WELL KNOWN in Europe- Italy has many of them (however, not complete as Kanuan).

Kanun is penal and civil code dear "expert" something that you ignore, so you make better impression not to speak about things that you have not even a vague idea about.

Although not more practiced Kanun WAS and IS widely respected by Albanians regardless if they live in valley, coast or Alps.

Why would any other muslim country want to recognise kosovo. I am confused about the turks, they claim to support an independent kosovo, yet they so whole-heartedly forget about the kurdish people in turkey. What about "Kurdistan." They dont recognise the kurds but they recognise kosovo?

Ah, what irony. I am completely baffled, and yet amused at some of the albanian commentators (i.e. FREEMAN). albanians are not muslims, they are albanians. Ah, what the hell are you building mosques for? Why do you study the qur'an?

If america hates all the other muslim countries so much, why does it apparently love the albanians? You build mosques, you celebrate muslim holidays, you follow muslim beliefs........therefore you must be a muslim.

But wait, america hates all the other muslims...
SO in other words, America doesnt care about the albanians, they are only interest in kosovo. They cant build bases in sovereign countries, and seeing as kosovo is not a country and it is in political limbo... what better place to set up "anti iranian(muslim) missile defense systems."

...but no its not like that......really? So why is EULEX so pushy to be initiated? So it can implement the Athisaari plan. Even though a number of EU countries DO NOT recognise kosovo.

TruthHearts, you honestly think serbia would have gone to war against the albanians in kosovo if they werent trying to steal it? We were up against almost every ex yugo country, the americans, french, and a hell load of others, not to mention NATO and we still came out on top. No matter how many crimes were broken to try and defeat us.
This whole illyrian thing is a joke. Learn your facts straight. IF Constantine "invented" the orthodox religion how do you explain russia's orthodox faith? Not to mention, russia was around a lot longer before the the romans. So was Estonia and Lithuania.
the Orthodox Church sees The Roman Catholic Church, the Anglican Communion, the Assyrian Church, the Coptic Church, and other Churches as break-away groups; the Assyrians and Copts broke from the church after the first few centuries and the Roman Catholics in the 11th century.
The Orthodox Church considers Jesus Christ to be the head of the Church and the Church to be His body. Thus, despite widely held popular belief outside the Orthodox cultures, there is no one bishop at the head of the Orthodox Church; references to the Archbishop, or "Patriarch" of Constantinople (essentially an honorary title) as a leader equivalent or comparable to a Pope in the Catholic Church is mistaken.

Kosovo is the drug, human trafficking, money laundering, weapon smuggling and much much more. Noteably this occurs right under the noses of the so called "democratic" "leaders" (AKA the KLA terrorist leaders) of Kosovo.

Where is the so called Kosovan flag behind Mr. Thaci. That speaks for itself. Speaking of religon, OIL IS THE #1 religon followed in the world.

"Regarding the religion, Constantine I, an Illyrian Emperor in Roman Empire, founded Constantinople and Orthodox religion."

This comment does not even deserve a response.

Albanian religion is Albanian. Albanians were Catholic before they became Muslim, with this said "who cares if osama bin countries support us". We support democracy, and freedom. If anyone is in bed with the Muslims is Serbian government. Make sure you remember this when you call others TURKS.

now that he has to come up with the muslim-states... he must be in trouble.

dear "albanicum" and "freeman", do you really believe that you can call 3000 years of history your own?

Actually dan,

The only peole allied with America in Saudi Arabia are the royals, since Americans guarantee their power in exchange for nice oil cooperation.

If it was up to the ordinary Arabs, the Saudi royals would have had their heads chopped off, loooonnng time ago.

If you've ever been to Saudi Arabia, you'll know that provided you're coming from the West and do not speak Arabic, the best thing would be to stay in American built reserves/cities.

Don't be so sure about Muslim recognition. The biggest focus for Muslims is the Plestine and they're pretty peeved off by the fact that the Great Satan allowed Kosovo to separate while ignoring the efforts of Palestinian Authority.
Also the hypocracy of now allowing the separation of Western Sahara, will not go down well with muslims either.

Looking at the bigger picture in Muslim eyes, your situation is hardly worth a consideration...let alone a recognition.

muslim countries know the albanian mentality which is to make friends with the powerful like in ottoman times they changed their christian religion to islam in order for personal relief and economic reasons, and again today they side with the WEST for the same reason no change at all.

We Albanians are not Muslim, let the Muslim countries stick this into their minds. We dont need their recognitions, they mean nothing to us.

Now Albanicum unless you are some 13 year old kid you really have a lot of growing up to do. Same goes to 'Freeman' You would do well to learn from God fearing Muslims and substitute the reverence you have for the US/EU/NATO to some other unearthly power.

What are you going to do when America is defeated? This time is coming- maybe then you will all of a sudden become devout and call onthe Muslim world to defend you.

Abdul Aziz- if you really are a Muslim- can you see what we have had to put up with? I sill don't know what they believe in.
(Milan, 19 August 2008 15:39)

Milan, that is clasic mate, we may be young nation but we are not naive. Great things can be expected from both of them, am afraid we cannot say the same for you...!
on a nother note, another clasic case, look what albanians done to us, we are the saviours/angels and you all must beleive us.

Recognition form Muslim Countries will come at the right moment, no need to worry. Lack of recognitions form Muslim countries is done with a purpose and the results are visible. Recognitions As it is significant results are achieved with the recognition process.

not all muslim countrys are enemys of USA ! saudi-arabia , united arab emirates , qatar , bahrain and many more are strong allies of USA! read some information.thaci is right most of muslim countrys will recognize kosovo that is a fact.only 8 muslim countrys have refused to recognize kosovo, they are indonesia , kazakhstan , egypt , lybia , sudan , kyrgyzstan , turkmenistan , iran.

This psedo-news is easily understandable if you take into consideration that the United States Special Envoy to the Organisation of Islamic Countries (OIC) was in the Sultanate (of Brunei) for two days as part of his regional tour aimed at strengthening relations between the US and the Islamic nations of the world :)
http://www.brudirect.com/DailyInfo/News/Archive/Aug08/190808/nite02.htm

Why are most comentators here 100% convinced that muslim countries will not recognise Kosovo. Let us wait and see what happens in the UN in September and let us see the results of the vote about the Serb initiative. After that, we will see if and how many new recognitions will come.

Only if you accept the fact hat you lost Kosovo, only then will you be winners.

"Most muslim countries does not see this as a religious issue but a political one and most are for international law and order"


“Those who are fighting on the other side don't know that Russia has always been the most loyal, reliable and consistent defender of the Islamic interests. By destroying Russia they are destroying one of the major supports for the Islamic world."
http://english.pravda.ru/world/asia/14-12-2005/9386-islam-0
Who's a 'Turk' now?

Kosovo problem with gaining the major muslim country approval is because of it's LACK of muslims. A small percentage of people go to the mosque, 80 percent of the woman dress provacative and everyone drinks alochol like it is going out of business. No hard line muslim country is going to touch Kosovo. Mr Thaci can keep wishing but it is not going to happen no matter how much he complains to the US for assistance to have countries recognize Kosovo. Most countries won't accept the new passport. But the Serbian passport is accepted everywhere that is why some many albanians have them.

I think Albanians must look to christian nations to gain recognition, but most of all to adopt an economic lifestyle so they will achieve the same progress.

I think that at the moment the greatest threat for Albanians is not Serbia anylonger, but islam. They need to radically expell islam in order to survive as a European nation. It should be easy for them, islam still has shallow routes in their lives, since most of K-Alb drink alchool, and even their traditional legislation (such as Kanun - over 1,000 years old) has different codes of behavior than islamic way of life (Kanun does not allow a man to bow and stand on his knees a common possition in ismaic prayer).

It's refreshing to see that the Albanian posters here do not profess the Islamic faith and put themselves as European before Islamic. I respect that.

In case you know everyone has the right to believe in whatever they want, this is guarantied by the constitution of the Republic of Kosovo. Unfortunately, people like who I must add are UNEDUCATED to know this fact and come over here to write LIES on behalf of the Kosovo people. Also, please remember that in our heart, every Albanian is first free, than a Catholic, Muslim etc, etc. Therefore, next time you want to call the Albanians something, please do your homework and find out WHO IS THE MUSLIMS best friend lately, i.e. SERBIJA, IRAN, RUSSIA etc, etc

ehhh freeman, Serbs were the ones kicked out of kosovo, not albanians. jsut look at the present day demographics and the pre 1999 stats. So spare the made up 800,000 refugees, they are all back in kosovo.

It's refreshing to see that the Albanian posters here do not profess the Islamic faith and put themselves as European before Islamic. I respect that.
(Peter Sudyka, 20 August 2008 22:42)

Peter I generally respect your comments but you seem naive in this regard. The K-Albanians are everything but European. The K-Albanians are which way the wind blows and right now it is blowing in EU?US direction but not for long. Previously it was blowing in an Ottoman direction and they put that identity first.

Hopefully Poland (and I'm for all of EU doing this) will allow the "Kosovars' to go to Poland and then you can see how European they are.


Milan said "If K-Albanians truly battled Serbs rather then got others to do it- at least there would be respect." You are talking about respect?? Your army and paramilitary unites fought against UNARMED civilians

Once again you are over-exaggerating this. What are the approximate death estimates during the 99 conflict? IS it 2753? If all the Serbs were doing were taking pot-shots at unarmed civillians wouldn't that figure be higher?
As for the exodus of civillians couldn't one argue that it was a result of a conflation between KLA, Serb Police and NATO activities?

dear ben,

being in the law, I know quite good what I am writing about. you may have your doubts about that, but given that you are an Albanian, what else should you say?

but one thing is for sure: the kanun is no legal system, in the true meaning of the word.
but, I am really not here to discuss that with you - if you are proud of those rather primitive rules - it just says so much about you!

you haven´t lost one single word about those thousands of poor male Albanians which I have mentioned in my post.

that also says more than enough about your true devotion to the rule of law...

so, I wish you the very best with your "legal system", but I prefer modern and civilized rules and regulations.

as for the funny part of your comment: are you talking about the Albanians when you write about "Invadors" and is it Kanun or "Kanuan", actually?

Milan said "If K-Albanians truly battled Serbs rather then got others to do it- at least there would be respect." You are talking about respect?? Your army and paramilitary unites fought against UNARMED civilians. I guess you gained respect by doing just that. Also, did you forget about the 800.000 civilians that were kicked out of their homes just for being Albania. here you go 1 more + towards your RESPECT SCALE. to conclude this I will say again that every Albanian in the world is Albanian first that something else. We cherish our freedom, therefor we fight on the righteous side of the USA,EU and all others who cherish freedom, unlike the dictators like PUTIN...

On 20 August 2008, 03:12, Peggy wrote:

"Fist, those countries are weak and at the mercy of bigger countries."

Yes, correct. And the smaller, would-be independent countries know about the threat, right? It is like climbing a mountain - there are risks, but as long as the climber is aware of the risks, I see no problem in him/her taking that risk. It is the same with small nations. They are at risk, but if they still choose to take that risk, who are we to stop them? Are we to declare them mentally sick, incapable of making their own decisions, and put them under administration by the UN??

Peggy wrote: "Do you give the rest of the house to them? Theft is theft however you look at it"

Why on all that is sane in this world would I give the rest of my house away? If I rent a room (or 2) to a couple, and they decide to have 10 children, then fine by them. But they still only rented the 2 rooms, so they damn well make sure that they fit into that room. If they want to rent more rooms, if they can pay the extra rent, then I guess I could consider it, but the choice would still be mine since I own the house.

Dropping this analogue, drop the rented rooms, and make it real: Immigrants in Denmark. I don't know how many 1st and 2nd generation immigrants we have in Denmark, perhaps 200,000 - I don't know. Right now, they are more r less spread through out the country, with some large concentrations in and around the major cities. If all them suddenly decided to sell their houses and apartments, and instead started to buying homes on one of the smaller islands, say Moen, then they would practically own that island. If they then decide to have a referendum among the people living on Moen, and the majority says "Yes, we want independence", then what right would I, living in a totally different part of the country have to oppose that? Sure, I could disagree, I could say they are foolish, that their economy will never work, that the rest of Denmark will boycott all trade with them, etc, etc, but that would never give me the right to physically attack them and force them to stay as part of "big" Denmark.

As I have said many times before: "My rights ends where your nose begins". If 10,000 an Albanians decides to move to Denmark, then buys all 10,000 houses in a small city and declare that city "The Independent New Albanian State in the High North", then that is their rights! They houses, their grounds, their roads - they bought the damn place!

If you and 2 million other Serbs are so in love with that part of the Balkans, why don't you take your savings and arrange a massive buy-out of the poor Kosovo Albanians? End of problem.
--

mr thaci,
who cares what these "muslim" countries say or do and you're far better off if they never recognize kosove. we are albanian and we are european. we don't need them, we never have needed them and having anything to do with them has never, ever done an ounce of good for us so let's worry about recognition from countries and nations where woman can vote, dress as they please in public and a free press is not only allowed but encouraged.

Milan said "If K-Albanians truly battled Serbs rather then got others to do it- at least there would be respect." You are talking about respect?? Your army and paramilitary unites fought against UNARMED civilians.

you know as well i as i do that that isn''t true and nobody outside of serbia believes it. also, history hasn't to date and will not record it as you've suggested.

now, is there really an Albanian here who is even proud of the "kanun"? great! since each and everytime I mentioned the kanun, it was censored by the B92-censors in their deeply routed democratic attitude...

my dear alb-american, because of the kanun and it´s primitive rules, many Albanians are suffering from severe brutalism and vigilante justice.
that means, there is absolutely no reason to be proud of this scourge of mankind.
that´s exactly the reason why civilized societies have developed a legal system, in order to prevent the poeple from killing each other.

unfortunately thousands of male Albanians cannot leave their houses, because only at home they mustn´t be killed according to the kanun...

that´s something you shouldn´t be proud of, if you wanna get into the european union some day in the not so near future.

lat but not least: the kanun is only one of those many indicators that the ancestors of todays Albanians were living isolated in the albanian mountains.

but that´s something you´ve very likely never heard of....

It is funny to read some comments in about whose side is the Muslum world.
Some commentators here would love to give the conflict in Kosova a religious colours. Some others are make prediction that the muslums countries will not recognise Kosova's independence because the largest Muslum country Indonisia refuses to do so. Our "exoert" Mike is surprised with the the man who boasted he had this list of "100 countries" ready to recognize this parastate within the first 48 hours of secession. To date, we have 45 countries (many of them begrudgingly and at the behest of the US, Britain, and Germany. Mike just "forgets" about Jeremic's "achivements" is stopping the process of recognition....
To keep things simple. The problem with the Muslum countries is that they are trying to agree a unified stance when it comes to Kosova's recognition. We all know that the overwhelmig majority of the Muslum countries are in favour of Kosova's independence. It is similar the the EU stance. A small minority will not be in position to block the will of overwhelming majority. That is the DEMOCRACY otherwise every natural process can be bought quite cheaply.

just in case someone cares about it:

sorry for that mistake above, it should have been "deeply rooted", not routed...

Jovan, as a law man you should know more. Kanun is a legal and MORAL system in every sense of the word. A code of behaviour. It is an ancient one, by all means, and it did regulate the life of the Albanians hundreds if not thousands of years ago. It represents the highest presence of an Albanian ancient civilization in the Balkans. It's first chapter is called "The Church" and regulates the relationship of Alb population and the church, at the time few in Europe did that, through a legal system.

It is a legislative system which has historical importance to the Albanians, and traditional values just like the form of governance, the senate of ancient greeks and romans is today all over the world.

Kanun is present today (not in the magnitude you describe) due to the fact that the Albanians have been deprived from a statehood and its rule of law - and guess by whom?

Nevertheless, Kanun is deeply non-muslim in its morality and virtues, and now it represents a tool to counterbalance the imperialistic and islam culture that has been poisoning albanian population in the Balkans, especially Kosovo and Macedonia.

(Jovan, 21 August 2008 17:27)


Now before you write about you have to read Kanun.

Kanun beside that regulates penal issues it also regulates CIVIL one tales you how large the road between two properties should be; how the heritage should be divided, the first book regulates the relations of ppl with the Church as Alb-American mentioned and many other civil issues.

So you ignore the civil part of the Kanun and focus to the stereotypes about Kanun due to your xenophobia in my opinion. I am sure you have no clue about Kanun but still insist in speaking about- see moisi’s post (moisi, 22 August 2008 07:52) he gives you some hints that the issue here is much more complex and articulated than your “knowledge” about Kanun.

Have you read one of the 12 books at least? One of the 1,300 articles??? That’s why I kindly suggested you not to speak about things that you don’t know- but you still insist.

I tale you that Italy has similar codes like Kanun but you prefer to “teach” civilisation- of course to Albanians- your preferred target ;))

Than you go with ‘thousands of ppl issue’- now tale me where did you got that statistics? Why not hundred of thousands?

Besides the notion of civilisation cannot be relativised- you have to prove it with acts. Being a Serb I can easily ask you if Srebrenica, Vukovar, Racak, the process of the Serbian state establishment in Hague these days about monster acts that they did in Kosova is civilisation????

You say “but, since even an us-american team of archeologists in the late 80´s declared your illyrian illusions as outdated”

Now although I am not particularly interested in it I would like to have some more info on this “scientific proof” can you pls suggest me where can I check your affirmation?


Now let me tackle your stereotypes.

Kanun as I said to you is above all cultural and political manifest of the Albanian pride and love for freedom and the motherland: we Albanians will not go in front of KADIA to judge us but we will solve our penal & CIVIL issues with our laws- how the Kanun says.

Now you cannot just pass above this it is VERY important and it says a very important thing:

that the resistance of Albanians was systematic and continuous day-by-day and in every segment of the life not sporadic and spontaneous or wait for the help form the big brother as others in the Balkan. A huge difference!

Above all what you ignore is the fact that Kanun basically is nothing exclusive Albanian. Ancient Greeks had the same moral and civil norms and rules as Kanun- it is the basic feature of the native Balkanians.

Some, maybe romantics, believe that the driving force of unification of the Greek cities in the war against Troy was the shared moral codes and values- the Trojans infringed the Kanun (to bring it in more modern times) and we are legitimate to take repression acts towards them. In fact that moral codes that regulate the behaviour of the host and hosted person. As a matter a fact Kanun says that the house of the Albanian is the house of the God and the guest. It brings the guest in the same status as God. The house is sacred continues- hence you know the punishment that you get if you offend the sacred temple- as the house.

Now pls don’t banalize as you often do in saying that I am affirming that Albanians have directly to do with Greek-Troyan war- I am just speaking about common cultural heritage and values.

The fact that Kanun survived till late only in the Northern part of Albania is due to geographical and historical-socio-economical reasons. You don’t have to be a ‘rocket scientist’ to understand this.

Unfortunately I am not able to help you when you speak about the compatibility of our MODERN society and the EU norms since I don’t know how to tackle the issues of chronic xenophobia. Moderna Albanian society does not apply Kanun anymore.

Although I believe that the spirit of Kanun should have been translated in the modern jurisdiction as gives to Albanians the feeling that the justice has been done. To escape form any banalisation is to say the crimes in the private house or against a woman should be punished severely i.e. if it is from 5-7 years make it 7-9 (my personal opinion).

What can I say is that this year Albania overpasses the million foreign tourist visitations that Albanian cities are in the agenda of every tourist cruise operator that visits the Mediterranean- in other words Albania is not anymore isolated and Kosova is not under occupation hence the Europeans (you including) can come and visit and judge themselves. So Jovo you are welcomed to visit Albanopolis, Byls, Butrinti and many other ancient Illyrian cities and enjoy the Mediterranean. Before you have to stop near Pristina and Visit ULPIANA- the other Illyrian city.

See Jovo nations are not randomly distributed in the space there are historical reasons why we live in south and you in north. There are also historical reasons why your (Slav) arrival is scientifically proven and there is not even one single proof that we have arrived here- ancient Greeks and Romans would have noticed our arrival just as they have noticed yours.

P.S. I am sure that you are intelligent enough to differentiate typo errors from the contextual one, so please spear me with this kind of comments.

direct answer to ben:

it´s not about what I "should" know, but rather about what I do definitely know, and I won´t answer on that "thousands of years" nonsense, this time, since it is simply laughable.

if there were thousands of years of albanian history... there would be traces.

but, since even an us-american team of archeologists in the late 80´s declared your illyrian illusions as outdated, from a serious historical standpoint, there´s nothing more to say about it - just believe what you wish to believe, even if it´s nonsense.

last but not least: you STILL haven´t lost a word about those albanian male´s I have mentioned...

seems like I hit a nerve here.

anyway, as I have said it before, and unfortunately it was censored by our big brothers, with that "legal system", how you call it, you won´t enter the european union.

because, you know, civilized rules and traditions are something completely different.

Jovan

I have The Code of Lek Dukagjini (known as Kanuni-the law) in English at home. Can you tell me in each book (it has 12 books)and each article ( it has over 1300) it says that :

male Albanians cannot leave their houses, because only at home they mustn´t be killed according to the kanun...

Thanks in advance

Abdul Aziz- if you really are a Muslim- can you see what we have had to put up with? I sill don't know what they believe in.
(Milan, 19 August 2008 15:39)

Milan,
If you don’t know by now, you will never know. Albanians believe in freedom. This is the only religion worth to believe in.
In 3000 years civilization, except some pirate fight with roman ships each we paid the hardest price from Roman Empire, Albanians never have started any war. Check the history and educate yourself. Regarding the religion, Constantine I, an Illyrian Emperor in Roman Empire, founded Constantinople and Orthodox religion. Religion, like politics is a way the government is organized; it is the way the spiritual believe is organized. Who play “a big ball” with religion is going to be burn in a “religion hell”. Albanians often have treated religion believe as it should be treated, as an individual choice of believe.
Here can be clear why Serbian politics always swinging between portraying Kosovo as paradise of “Islamic terrorists” to scare Western from supporting the freedom of Kosovo, and now as non-Muslim Kosovo, big friend of anti-Muslim US and Europe.
It is abut time when those fairy tales are going to be old and none will believe on those even Serbian people.

Albanian religion is Albanian. Albanians were Catholic before they became Muslim, with this said "who cares if osama bin countries support us". We support democracy, and freedom. If anyone is in bed with the Muslims is Serbian government. Make sure you remember this when you call others TURKS.

Why would any other muslim country want to recognise kosovo. I am confused about the turks, they claim to support an independent kosovo, yet they so whole-heartedly forget about the kurdish people in turkey. What about "Kurdistan." They dont recognise the kurds but they recognise kosovo?

Ah, what irony. I am completely baffled, and yet amused at some of the albanian commentators (i.e. FREEMAN). albanians are not muslims, they are albanians. Ah, what the hell are you building mosques for? Why do you study the qur'an?

If america hates all the other muslim countries so much, why does it apparently love the albanians? You build mosques, you celebrate muslim holidays, you follow muslim beliefs........therefore you must be a muslim.

But wait, america hates all the other muslims...
SO in other words, America doesnt care about the albanians, they are only interest in kosovo. They cant build bases in sovereign countries, and seeing as kosovo is not a country and it is in political limbo... what better place to set up "anti iranian(muslim) missile defense systems."

...but no its not like that......really? So why is EULEX so pushy to be initiated? So it can implement the Athisaari plan. Even though a number of EU countries DO NOT recognise kosovo.

TruthHearts, you honestly think serbia would have gone to war against the albanians in kosovo if they werent trying to steal it? We were up against almost every ex yugo country, the americans, french, and a hell load of others, not to mention NATO and we still came out on top. No matter how many crimes were broken to try and defeat us.
This whole illyrian thing is a joke. Learn your facts straight. IF Constantine "invented" the orthodox religion how do you explain russia's orthodox faith? Not to mention, russia was around a lot longer before the the romans. So was Estonia and Lithuania.
the Orthodox Church sees The Roman Catholic Church, the Anglican Communion, the Assyrian Church, the Coptic Church, and other Churches as break-away groups; the Assyrians and Copts broke from the church after the first few centuries and the Roman Catholics in the 11th century.
The Orthodox Church considers Jesus Christ to be the head of the Church and the Church to be His body. Thus, despite widely held popular belief outside the Orthodox cultures, there is no one bishop at the head of the Orthodox Church; references to the Archbishop, or "Patriarch" of Constantinople (essentially an honorary title) as a leader equivalent or comparable to a Pope in the Catholic Church is mistaken.

Kosovo is the drug, human trafficking, money laundering, weapon smuggling and much much more. Noteably this occurs right under the noses of the so called "democratic" "leaders" (AKA the KLA terrorist leaders) of Kosovo.

We Albanians are not Muslim, let the Muslim countries stick this into their minds. We dont need their recognitions, they mean nothing to us.

We, the Albanians in Kosovo, are more than 80% Muslims, but mature and appreceited by the West in general.

Obvisouly, we differ from the Muslim world in the Middle East, BUT we cannot deny what we are. Denying identity is lying self for self interests, which again doesn't make us being liked more than what we are.

Albanians are above all very kind, human, generous, very hospitable and non-threatening/invading-nation. History has shown this.

On 20 August 2008, 03:12, Peggy wrote:

"Fist, those countries are weak and at the mercy of bigger countries."

Yes, correct. And the smaller, would-be independent countries know about the threat, right? It is like climbing a mountain - there are risks, but as long as the climber is aware of the risks, I see no problem in him/her taking that risk. It is the same with small nations. They are at risk, but if they still choose to take that risk, who are we to stop them? Are we to declare them mentally sick, incapable of making their own decisions, and put them under administration by the UN??

Peggy wrote: "Do you give the rest of the house to them? Theft is theft however you look at it"

Why on all that is sane in this world would I give the rest of my house away? If I rent a room (or 2) to a couple, and they decide to have 10 children, then fine by them. But they still only rented the 2 rooms, so they damn well make sure that they fit into that room. If they want to rent more rooms, if they can pay the extra rent, then I guess I could consider it, but the choice would still be mine since I own the house.

Dropping this analogue, drop the rented rooms, and make it real: Immigrants in Denmark. I don't know how many 1st and 2nd generation immigrants we have in Denmark, perhaps 200,000 - I don't know. Right now, they are more r less spread through out the country, with some large concentrations in and around the major cities. If all them suddenly decided to sell their houses and apartments, and instead started to buying homes on one of the smaller islands, say Moen, then they would practically own that island. If they then decide to have a referendum among the people living on Moen, and the majority says "Yes, we want independence", then what right would I, living in a totally different part of the country have to oppose that? Sure, I could disagree, I could say they are foolish, that their economy will never work, that the rest of Denmark will boycott all trade with them, etc, etc, but that would never give me the right to physically attack them and force them to stay as part of "big" Denmark.

As I have said many times before: "My rights ends where your nose begins". If 10,000 an Albanians decides to move to Denmark, then buys all 10,000 houses in a small city and declare that city "The Independent New Albanian State in the High North", then that is their rights! They houses, their grounds, their roads - they bought the damn place!

If you and 2 million other Serbs are so in love with that part of the Balkans, why don't you take your savings and arrange a massive buy-out of the poor Kosovo Albanians? End of problem.
--

Didn't "Thaci the police murderer" said that 6 months ago already? Who is he trying to fool?

Ohh, I forgot, the wave of recognitions will come soon! Before september 92 countries will have recognized "Kosova".... and the snake will be on interpols most wanted list for police murder...

not all muslim countrys are enemys of USA ! saudi-arabia , united arab emirates , qatar , bahrain and many more are strong allies of USA! read some information.thaci is right most of muslim countrys will recognize kosovo that is a fact.only 8 muslim countrys have refused to recognize kosovo, they are indonesia , kazakhstan , egypt , lybia , sudan , kyrgyzstan , turkmenistan , iran.

someone asked about in what Albanian believe in?
You have to be an Albanian to understand.. we believe in ourselves first, our own culture first, our own people and heritage first and freedom of Albanians first. We will not rest till we achieve all kind of freedoms.

Milan said "If K-Albanians truly battled Serbs rather then got others to do it- at least there would be respect." You are talking about respect?? Your army and paramilitary unites fought against UNARMED civilians. I guess you gained respect by doing just that. Also, did you forget about the 800.000 civilians that were kicked out of their homes just for being Albania. here you go 1 more + towards your RESPECT SCALE. to conclude this I will say again that every Albanian in the world is Albanian first that something else. We cherish our freedom, therefor we fight on the righteous side of the USA,EU and all others who cherish freedom, unlike the dictators like PUTIN...

ehhh freeman, Serbs were the ones kicked out of kosovo, not albanians. jsut look at the present day demographics and the pre 1999 stats. So spare the made up 800,000 refugees, they are all back in kosovo.

First Mr. Thaci, you did not get EU's help. EU as a body has not recognized you, only some countries which are in EU have.

Second, Indonesia, largest Muslim country refuses to recognize you, so I suspect that many other Muslim countries will follow their example.

Third, Albanians are always saying how they are not Muslim but Albanian first so I doubt this will sit well with most of the Muslim countries, particularly when yo are in bed with the US who they hate.

So, why do you think these Muslim countries will help you? What have you in common with them that you are willing to say openly?

mr thaci dilemma is being a very good friend of US which most muslims regard as their enemy. only to gain its independence kosovo traded its muslim alliance to US. this is why up to now no muslim country except albanian and turkey which is understandable recognized kosovo. THIS IS NOT ABOUT RELIGION my friends. it is about principles. and muslim world is intelligent.

What muslim countries have to gain by recognizing Kosovo? Nothing. Recognizing Kosovo is not only siding with the United States, it is siding with a few major countries in the occidental part of the world with whom those Middle East countries have conflicts with. The world of international relations is based on power and you get power with money and support. In which recent conflict did the Countries of the middle-east side with the US ? None. The middle-eastern countries will stay indifferent to the Kosovo. They will not recognize it, they will just stay away from this whole box of pandora that has been open earlier this year. Another factor that will weight a lot in the balance is the fact that the Albanian Mafia controls the country, that the country is led by war criminals (Liberated because the witnesses dissapeared suddenly), and the other fact is that Kosovo is too much a center of scandal, instability and it is bad publicity for the Middle-East which will choose to leave this conflict in the hands of those that created it. The muslim countries are said to be 'Terrorists', but if you read well, 2 or 3 extremists countries are always mentionned, most of those countries are quiet and are not taking part to the conflicts which is very wise and basically in their beliefs and fundamental values. Did Kosovo showed those same values? No. Will Kosovo be recognized by the Muslim's world? No.

Why are most comentators here 100% convinced that muslim countries will not recognise Kosovo. Let us wait and see what happens in the UN in September and let us see the results of the vote about the Serb initiative. After that, we will see if and how many new recognitions will come.

Only if you accept the fact hat you lost Kosovo, only then will you be winners.

all the countries that have not recognised Kosovo so far have not done so not becouse of the great love they have for Serbia,but becouse this countries have semi-colonial structures themselfs and they fear the people they master,nor do this countries care about Serb-Albanian relations.As neither of us can terminate the other totally we have to learn to live as good neighbours even if for the sake of our children.

"We Albanians are not Muslim, let the Muslim countries stick this into their minds. We dont need their recognitions, they mean nothing to us.
(Albanicum, 19 August 2008 14:07)

Now Albanicum unless you are some 13 year old kid you really have a lot of growing up to do. Same goes to 'Freeman' You would do well to learn from God fearing Muslims and substitute the reverence you have for the US/EU/NATO to some other unearthly power.

What are you going to do when America is defeated? This time is coming- maybe then you will all of a sudden become devout and call onthe Muslim world to defend you.

Abdul Aziz- if you really are a Muslim- can you see what we have had to put up with? I sill don't know what they believe in.

Well this one is for Mr. Milan.
What do you want us to learn from the God fearing Muslims, maybe how to disrespect our woman, isolate our country from the world, and not to mention killing innocent children in the name of what??? GIVE ME A BREAK. the same muslims kept us 500 years in prison, the same muslims killed our culture, and people. Let me give you a pice of an advice, THE FREE WORLD wants democracy not and freedom, join the club or close yourself behind your religious WALL.

Abdul Aziz said ...

"this is why up to now no muslim country except albanian and turkey which is understandable recognized kosovo. THIS IS NOT ABOUT RELIGION my friends. it is about principles. and muslim world is intelligent."
--------------------------

But of course it is. We see examples of this intelligence every day. Your "muslim world" is an embarrassment to Islam. Ironically, Turkey and Albania...and Kosovo are among the very few countries with a Muslim majority population and no official religion. It explains why the head of the Greek Orthodox Church is in Instanbul and why Albania is a religious free-for-all. How's that for following Koranic principles?

As far as I'm concerned, Kosovo should not go for numbers, but for quality. You don't want to owe debts to countries that have nothing to contribute to the world but dogmatism, violence and backwardness (social, moral, and economical).

My advice to Thaci is to stick with the "crusaders", the "great Satan", and those Muslim countries that share our understanding of religion's place in society, and stir away from the "angels" of the East who still debate how many virgins you get when you go to paradise and whose technological contribution to the world is the suicide bomber and roadside mines.

In case you know everyone has the right to believe in whatever they want, this is guarantied by the constitution of the Republic of Kosovo. Unfortunately, people like who I must add are UNEDUCATED to know this fact and come over here to write LIES on behalf of the Kosovo people. Also, please remember that in our heart, every Albanian is first free, than a Catholic, Muslim etc, etc. Therefore, next time you want to call the Albanians something, please do your homework and find out WHO IS THE MUSLIMS best friend lately, i.e. SERBIJA, IRAN, RUSSIA etc, etc

"Regarding the religion, Constantine I, an Illyrian Emperor in Roman Empire, founded Constantinople and Orthodox religion."

This comment does not even deserve a response.

Milan, that is clasic mate, we may be young nation but we are not naive. Great things can be expected from both of them, am afraid we cannot say the same for you...!
on a nother note, another clasic case, look what albanians done to us, we are the saviours/angels and you all must beleive us.
M, 19 August 2008 16:45)

Sorry "M" I have no idea what you mean here? I take it your American.


GIVE ME A BREAK. the same muslims kept us 500 years in prison, the same muslims killed our culture, and people. Let me give you a pice of an advice, THE FREE WORLD wants democracy not and freedom, join the club or close yourself behind your religious WALL.
(Freeman, 19 August 2008 17:04)
Freeman- I always like this. First it was the Romans, the Serbs/Slavs, then Turks, then Serbs when will it be the USA/EU that has supressed you and killed your culture? I keep asking Albanians why the animosity to Turks? Who made you change your religion and why didn't we Serbs? If your civilisation was so old as you claim- wouldn't you have held onto it more dearly? The answer is no- because you actually came with the Turks and you change your tune to whoever alse comes along.
The K-Albanians are a long way from true freedom loving people like the Kurds- you don't see them waving Stars/Stripe/EU/NATO flags. Freeman "Freedom and democracy" comes from sacrifice- up until now you keep getting silver spoons of it.
If K-Albanians truly battled Serbs rather then got others to do it- at least there would be respect.

Kosovo problem with gaining the major muslim country approval is because of it's LACK of muslims. A small percentage of people go to the mosque, 80 percent of the woman dress provacative and everyone drinks alochol like it is going out of business. No hard line muslim country is going to touch Kosovo. Mr Thaci can keep wishing but it is not going to happen no matter how much he complains to the US for assistance to have countries recognize Kosovo. Most countries won't accept the new passport. But the Serbian passport is accepted everywhere that is why some many albanians have them.

now, is there really an Albanian here who is even proud of the "kanun"? great! since each and everytime I mentioned the kanun, it was censored by the B92-censors in their deeply routed democratic attitude...

my dear alb-american, because of the kanun and it´s primitive rules, many Albanians are suffering from severe brutalism and vigilante justice.
that means, there is absolutely no reason to be proud of this scourge of mankind.
that´s exactly the reason why civilized societies have developed a legal system, in order to prevent the poeple from killing each other.

unfortunately thousands of male Albanians cannot leave their houses, because only at home they mustn´t be killed according to the kanun...

that´s something you shouldn´t be proud of, if you wanna get into the european union some day in the not so near future.

lat but not least: the kanun is only one of those many indicators that the ancestors of todays Albanians were living isolated in the albanian mountains.

but that´s something you´ve very likely never heard of....

(Jovan, 20 August 2008 21:40)

When the Serbs will stop speaking about things that have no clue about?

Kanun is the TANGIBLE asset that Albanians NEVER obeyed the INVADORS.

It is the MANIFEST of OUR INDEPENDENCE: WE WILL NEVER OBEY YOUR LAWS (of invaders) BUT ONLY AND ONLY TO OUR LAWS to our KANUN.

This is Kanuan dear Jovan- something that you never had. You alleged resistance to invaders is only your words- NOTHING TANGIBLE, like it or not this is the truth.

Law as the KANUN are WELL KNOWN in Europe- Italy has many of them (however, not complete as Kanuan).

Kanun is penal and civil code dear "expert" something that you ignore, so you make better impression not to speak about things that you have not even a vague idea about.

Although not more practiced Kanun WAS and IS widely respected by Albanians regardless if they live in valley, coast or Alps.

I think Thaci might be engaging in some wishful thinking here. I can't see too many Muslim countries being very happy about Thaci's alliance with the "Great Satan" and the "crusaders" from Europe. Dream on Thaci.

I don't believe the Muslim world views the Kosovo issue as religion but rather political - meaning siding with the US and that seems to be where the reluctance lies.
Also, with the Kosovo precendent spilling over into Georgia, that is further reason to respect international law and internationally recognised borders as many Muslim nations have their own issues.
There is obvious and strong resistance against Kosovo recognition and I cannot see this shifting anytime soon - if ever.
Lets see what happens at the end of this month as the next wave of recognitions was supposed to occur in August. It has been fairly quiet this month so far!

I'm not exactly sure what Thaci's motives for saying what he said are. This is the man who boasted he had this list of "100 countries" ready to recognize this parastate within the first 48 hours of secession. To date, we have 45 countries (many of them begrudgingly and at the behest of the US, Britain, and Germany). It seems many of these Muslim countries aren't interested in recognizing what it little more than an international protectorate sponsored by the US. And to say that Kosovo is an independent and soveriegn country is completely ridiculous since it is utterly dependent on foreign aid and military security - not to mention a third of its territory not even recognizing the institutions propped up in Pristina. I'm beginning to think the real reason he and his partner in crime Sejdiu went to Washington last month was to take a lesson in political spin doctoring from the Karl Rove machine that has so successfully encased the Bush Administration in the halcyonic bubble it also acts in. It's one thing to keep a stiff upper lip in the face of difficult times. It's hallucinogenic to take a potato wagon and call it a luxury automobile.

Thaci!! please tell that to indonesia, malaysia, Egypt, Sudan, Algeria, Iran, Iraq,Kazahkstan, Libya and many others.

Most muslim countries does not see this as a religious issue but a political one and most are for international law and order

Recognition form Muslim Countries will come at the right moment, no need to worry. Lack of recognitions form Muslim countries is done with a purpose and the results are visible. Recognitions As it is significant results are achieved with the recognition process.

Now Albanicum unless you are some 13 year old kid you really have a lot of growing up to do. Same goes to 'Freeman' You would do well to learn from God fearing Muslims and substitute the reverence you have for the US/EU/NATO to some other unearthly power.

What are you going to do when America is defeated? This time is coming- maybe then you will all of a sudden become devout and call onthe Muslim world to defend you.

Abdul Aziz- if you really are a Muslim- can you see what we have had to put up with? I sill don't know what they believe in.
(Milan, 19 August 2008 15:39)

Milan, that is clasic mate, we may be young nation but we are not naive. Great things can be expected from both of them, am afraid we cannot say the same for you...!
on a nother note, another clasic case, look what albanians done to us, we are the saviours/angels and you all must beleive us.

now that he has to come up with the muslim-states... he must be in trouble.

dear "albanicum" and "freeman", do you really believe that you can call 3000 years of history your own?

muslim countries know the albanian mentality which is to make friends with the powerful like in ottoman times they changed their christian religion to islam in order for personal relief and economic reasons, and again today they side with the WEST for the same reason no change at all.

mr thaci,
who cares what these "muslim" countries say or do and you're far better off if they never recognize kosove. we are albanian and we are european. we don't need them, we never have needed them and having anything to do with them has never, ever done an ounce of good for us so let's worry about recognition from countries and nations where woman can vote, dress as they please in public and a free press is not only allowed but encouraged.

Milan said "If K-Albanians truly battled Serbs rather then got others to do it- at least there would be respect." You are talking about respect?? Your army and paramilitary unites fought against UNARMED civilians.

you know as well i as i do that that isn''t true and nobody outside of serbia believes it. also, history hasn't to date and will not record it as you've suggested.

just in case someone cares about it:

sorry for that mistake above, it should have been "deeply rooted", not routed...

It's refreshing to see that the Albanian posters here do not profess the Islamic faith and put themselves as European before Islamic. I respect that.
(Peter Sudyka, 20 August 2008 22:42)

Peter I generally respect your comments but you seem naive in this regard. The K-Albanians are everything but European. The K-Albanians are which way the wind blows and right now it is blowing in EU?US direction but not for long. Previously it was blowing in an Ottoman direction and they put that identity first.

Hopefully Poland (and I'm for all of EU doing this) will allow the "Kosovars' to go to Poland and then you can see how European they are.


Milan said "If K-Albanians truly battled Serbs rather then got others to do it- at least there would be respect." You are talking about respect?? Your army and paramilitary unites fought against UNARMED civilians

Once again you are over-exaggerating this. What are the approximate death estimates during the 99 conflict? IS it 2753? If all the Serbs were doing were taking pot-shots at unarmed civillians wouldn't that figure be higher?
As for the exodus of civillians couldn't one argue that it was a result of a conflation between KLA, Serb Police and NATO activities?

direct answer to ben:

it´s not about what I "should" know, but rather about what I do definitely know, and I won´t answer on that "thousands of years" nonsense, this time, since it is simply laughable.

if there were thousands of years of albanian history... there would be traces.

but, since even an us-american team of archeologists in the late 80´s declared your illyrian illusions as outdated, from a serious historical standpoint, there´s nothing more to say about it - just believe what you wish to believe, even if it´s nonsense.

last but not least: you STILL haven´t lost a word about those albanian male´s I have mentioned...

seems like I hit a nerve here.

anyway, as I have said it before, and unfortunately it was censored by our big brothers, with that "legal system", how you call it, you won´t enter the european union.

because, you know, civilized rules and traditions are something completely different.

This psedo-news is easily understandable if you take into consideration that the United States Special Envoy to the Organisation of Islamic Countries (OIC) was in the Sultanate (of Brunei) for two days as part of his regional tour aimed at strengthening relations between the US and the Islamic nations of the world :)
http://www.brudirect.com/DailyInfo/News/Archive/Aug08/190808/nite02.htm

"Most muslim countries does not see this as a religious issue but a political one and most are for international law and order"


“Those who are fighting on the other side don't know that Russia has always been the most loyal, reliable and consistent defender of the Islamic interests. By destroying Russia they are destroying one of the major supports for the Islamic world."
http://english.pravda.ru/world/asia/14-12-2005/9386-islam-0
Who's a 'Turk' now?

Where is the so called Kosovan flag behind Mr. Thaci. That speaks for itself. Speaking of religon, OIL IS THE #1 religon followed in the world.

Actually dan,

The only peole allied with America in Saudi Arabia are the royals, since Americans guarantee their power in exchange for nice oil cooperation.

If it was up to the ordinary Arabs, the Saudi royals would have had their heads chopped off, loooonnng time ago.

If you've ever been to Saudi Arabia, you'll know that provided you're coming from the West and do not speak Arabic, the best thing would be to stay in American built reserves/cities.

Don't be so sure about Muslim recognition. The biggest focus for Muslims is the Plestine and they're pretty peeved off by the fact that the Great Satan allowed Kosovo to separate while ignoring the efforts of Palestinian Authority.
Also the hypocracy of now allowing the separation of Western Sahara, will not go down well with muslims either.

Looking at the bigger picture in Muslim eyes, your situation is hardly worth a consideration...let alone a recognition.

I think Albanians must look to christian nations to gain recognition, but most of all to adopt an economic lifestyle so they will achieve the same progress.

I think that at the moment the greatest threat for Albanians is not Serbia anylonger, but islam. They need to radically expell islam in order to survive as a European nation. It should be easy for them, islam still has shallow routes in their lives, since most of K-Alb drink alchool, and even their traditional legislation (such as Kanun - over 1,000 years old) has different codes of behavior than islamic way of life (Kanun does not allow a man to bow and stand on his knees a common possition in ismaic prayer).

It's refreshing to see that the Albanian posters here do not profess the Islamic faith and put themselves as European before Islamic. I respect that.

It is funny to read some comments in about whose side is the Muslum world.
Some commentators here would love to give the conflict in Kosova a religious colours. Some others are make prediction that the muslums countries will not recognise Kosova's independence because the largest Muslum country Indonisia refuses to do so. Our "exoert" Mike is surprised with the the man who boasted he had this list of "100 countries" ready to recognize this parastate within the first 48 hours of secession. To date, we have 45 countries (many of them begrudgingly and at the behest of the US, Britain, and Germany. Mike just "forgets" about Jeremic's "achivements" is stopping the process of recognition....
To keep things simple. The problem with the Muslum countries is that they are trying to agree a unified stance when it comes to Kosova's recognition. We all know that the overwhelmig majority of the Muslum countries are in favour of Kosova's independence. It is similar the the EU stance. A small minority will not be in position to block the will of overwhelming majority. That is the DEMOCRACY otherwise every natural process can be bought quite cheaply.

dear ben,

being in the law, I know quite good what I am writing about. you may have your doubts about that, but given that you are an Albanian, what else should you say?

but one thing is for sure: the kanun is no legal system, in the true meaning of the word.
but, I am really not here to discuss that with you - if you are proud of those rather primitive rules - it just says so much about you!

you haven´t lost one single word about those thousands of poor male Albanians which I have mentioned in my post.

that also says more than enough about your true devotion to the rule of law...

so, I wish you the very best with your "legal system", but I prefer modern and civilized rules and regulations.

as for the funny part of your comment: are you talking about the Albanians when you write about "Invadors" and is it Kanun or "Kanuan", actually?

Jovan, as a law man you should know more. Kanun is a legal and MORAL system in every sense of the word. A code of behaviour. It is an ancient one, by all means, and it did regulate the life of the Albanians hundreds if not thousands of years ago. It represents the highest presence of an Albanian ancient civilization in the Balkans. It's first chapter is called "The Church" and regulates the relationship of Alb population and the church, at the time few in Europe did that, through a legal system.

It is a legislative system which has historical importance to the Albanians, and traditional values just like the form of governance, the senate of ancient greeks and romans is today all over the world.

Kanun is present today (not in the magnitude you describe) due to the fact that the Albanians have been deprived from a statehood and its rule of law - and guess by whom?

Nevertheless, Kanun is deeply non-muslim in its morality and virtues, and now it represents a tool to counterbalance the imperialistic and islam culture that has been poisoning albanian population in the Balkans, especially Kosovo and Macedonia.

Jovan

I have The Code of Lek Dukagjini (known as Kanuni-the law) in English at home. Can you tell me in each book (it has 12 books)and each article ( it has over 1300) it says that :

male Albanians cannot leave their houses, because only at home they mustn´t be killed according to the kanun...

Thanks in advance

(Jovan, 21 August 2008 17:27)


Now before you write about you have to read Kanun.

Kanun beside that regulates penal issues it also regulates CIVIL one tales you how large the road between two properties should be; how the heritage should be divided, the first book regulates the relations of ppl with the Church as Alb-American mentioned and many other civil issues.

So you ignore the civil part of the Kanun and focus to the stereotypes about Kanun due to your xenophobia in my opinion. I am sure you have no clue about Kanun but still insist in speaking about- see moisi’s post (moisi, 22 August 2008 07:52) he gives you some hints that the issue here is much more complex and articulated than your “knowledge” about Kanun.

Have you read one of the 12 books at least? One of the 1,300 articles??? That’s why I kindly suggested you not to speak about things that you don’t know- but you still insist.

I tale you that Italy has similar codes like Kanun but you prefer to “teach” civilisation- of course to Albanians- your preferred target ;))

Than you go with ‘thousands of ppl issue’- now tale me where did you got that statistics? Why not hundred of thousands?

Besides the notion of civilisation cannot be relativised- you have to prove it with acts. Being a Serb I can easily ask you if Srebrenica, Vukovar, Racak, the process of the Serbian state establishment in Hague these days about monster acts that they did in Kosova is civilisation????

You say “but, since even an us-american team of archeologists in the late 80´s declared your illyrian illusions as outdated”

Now although I am not particularly interested in it I would like to have some more info on this “scientific proof” can you pls suggest me where can I check your affirmation?


Now let me tackle your stereotypes.

Kanun as I said to you is above all cultural and political manifest of the Albanian pride and love for freedom and the motherland: we Albanians will not go in front of KADIA to judge us but we will solve our penal & CIVIL issues with our laws- how the Kanun says.

Now you cannot just pass above this it is VERY important and it says a very important thing:

that the resistance of Albanians was systematic and continuous day-by-day and in every segment of the life not sporadic and spontaneous or wait for the help form the big brother as others in the Balkan. A huge difference!

Above all what you ignore is the fact that Kanun basically is nothing exclusive Albanian. Ancient Greeks had the same moral and civil norms and rules as Kanun- it is the basic feature of the native Balkanians.

Some, maybe romantics, believe that the driving force of unification of the Greek cities in the war against Troy was the shared moral codes and values- the Trojans infringed the Kanun (to bring it in more modern times) and we are legitimate to take repression acts towards them. In fact that moral codes that regulate the behaviour of the host and hosted person. As a matter a fact Kanun says that the house of the Albanian is the house of the God and the guest. It brings the guest in the same status as God. The house is sacred continues- hence you know the punishment that you get if you offend the sacred temple- as the house.

Now pls don’t banalize as you often do in saying that I am affirming that Albanians have directly to do with Greek-Troyan war- I am just speaking about common cultural heritage and values.

The fact that Kanun survived till late only in the Northern part of Albania is due to geographical and historical-socio-economical reasons. You don’t have to be a ‘rocket scientist’ to understand this.

Unfortunately I am not able to help you when you speak about the compatibility of our MODERN society and the EU norms since I don’t know how to tackle the issues of chronic xenophobia. Moderna Albanian society does not apply Kanun anymore.

Although I believe that the spirit of Kanun should have been translated in the modern jurisdiction as gives to Albanians the feeling that the justice has been done. To escape form any banalisation is to say the crimes in the private house or against a woman should be punished severely i.e. if it is from 5-7 years make it 7-9 (my personal opinion).

What can I say is that this year Albania overpasses the million foreign tourist visitations that Albanian cities are in the agenda of every tourist cruise operator that visits the Mediterranean- in other words Albania is not anymore isolated and Kosova is not under occupation hence the Europeans (you including) can come and visit and judge themselves. So Jovo you are welcomed to visit Albanopolis, Byls, Butrinti and many other ancient Illyrian cities and enjoy the Mediterranean. Before you have to stop near Pristina and Visit ULPIANA- the other Illyrian city.

See Jovo nations are not randomly distributed in the space there are historical reasons why we live in south and you in north. There are also historical reasons why your (Slav) arrival is scientifically proven and there is not even one single proof that we have arrived here- ancient Greeks and Romans would have noticed our arrival just as they have noticed yours.

P.S. I am sure that you are intelligent enough to differentiate typo errors from the contextual one, so please spear me with this kind of comments.