Russia warns of "terrible problem" over Kosovo

Gezim,
Your arguments are clear, reasoned and moderate in tone. All to be welcomed. However your exposition of the facts is highly selective and you are ignoring the likely consequences of your thesis. I will just mention two things:
1. You speak of the "atrocities" committed by Serbian security forces on the Albanian population over "20 years". Why, I ask you, have hundreds of thousands of Serbs left Kosovo in recent dacades. It was not for economic reasons as this would have also have meant droves of Albanians leaving the province. For the most part it was because they were living in a hostile environment where their personal and family security was under threat every day of the week.

Do some research on violence in the province throughout the eighties and nineties and you will find out for yourself. I will leave it at that, but they were terrible times for the Serb people of Kosovo with murder, burnings, assault and intimidation being very much a part of daily life.

2. You say that non-Serbs "deserve to live in peace and freedom according to their own terms and political will". Nobody would want anyone else to live without peace and freedom, but if every ethnic group is allowed to live according to "their own terms", then every national minority worldwide would be entitled to independence. This is the Pandora's Box that Kosovo independence could unleash. It is why we have international law, and once exceptions are made, the precedent is set.

So Pristina declares, Washington recognizes, Mitrovica ignores, Belgrade moves in, Brussels complains, Moscow intervenes, the EU keeps the peace, while the UN partitions.

Makes sense to me. I've resigned myself to it.

gjon cima,

Are you kidding me? You clearly have not looked if you have not found thousand year old maps which show Kosovo as part of the Serbian Empire. Here is one for you.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbian_Empire
In the thirteenth century, Kosovo became the heart of the Serbian political and religious life, with the Šar mountain becoming the political center of the Serbian rulers. These are facts, not fairy tales like some albanians post on here to try to change histry. It is just more proof that Kosovo has always been Serbian, and always will be.
Cheers!

"Kosovo will not get full independence on Feb 17. Russia has a prepared position in the event of a proclamation of independence," Kosachev concluded.
Albanians can keep on making up dates. Sooner than later they will accept Americas empty promises. Time to rename Clinton Blvd to Putin Blvd.

Once again Mr Sutanovac is being naïve to trust NATO’s assurances for maintaining peace and stability in Kosovo. KFOR failed to provide security each time the violence broke out, not to mention the sporadic attacks against Serbian minority that occur on the nearly daily basis. But lets see what will Sutanovac explain when KFOR fail to protect Serbs after 17th February and how will he react.

As for Mr Gates, I must ask what he was having in mind saying Russia won’t make big noise. Did he maybe think that Russia will declare war? Nonsense! And if he thought Russia will do just nothing then he is wrong after Mr Kosachev claimed just the opposite. It seems that Russia has some strategy and I am looking forward seeing what all is about. Of course Kosovo won’t get full independence, it will be supervised one handled by the EU.

Albanians are simply wasting our time! Get a life!

Gezim from Boston.... what means far away, right?

I wonder how Albanians can´t understand that Kosovo is simply not theirs.
they live there, yes, but it is serbian land, and given that it is historical serbian territory, you should in your own interest stop those useless attempts to act as a reasonable person, only caring for the good of the Balkans...

if the Albanians chose the wrong way, they will have trouble.
it´s their own choice, and unfortunately the rely on false friends...

just like they did in ottoman times...

because always remember, Serbs won´t let Kosovo go away.

let´s hope real reason will prevail.
we will see.

ps: to all those comments about me sounding nervours or desperate, ...spare your time. I am neither nervous nor desperate, UNSC 1244 is in effect and thats priceless.

you still do not get it, I know.

Well lets just see what happens come the 17th February - what is for certain is that the status limbo will continue 1244 remains and that is the huge joke of this mission INLEX (lawless) Kosovo - not even the old rock band Status Quo had so many comebacks!!!

Leonidas, I think Russians are hinting at future problems that Cyprus needs to be aware of for their own protection - what will be the case if the Lisbon treaty is accepted and ratified ? Could the Cypriots lose their right to veto - all "equal" partners in the EU big or small supposedly. However, importantly the small need to ensure they have not signed away their rights.

Whats your take Tom - could this been another shortcoming of the Lisbon treaty? Cyprus might have an illegal independent North Cyprus imposed upon it once they lose their veto. We all know what majority voting means in reality the big ("more equal then others") states dictate and arm twist a few small states to accept their "wisdom" on foreign policy! The Russians are hinting at future events that the EU technocrats will instigate next - many of them believe the Cypriots are the "troublemakers" just because they have stood up for principle. Leonidas, not sure if you are from the mainland or Cyprus but I guess this would be of interest either way;
Restart the talks, David Hannay
http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/david_hannay/2008/02/restart_the_talks.html

It really would not surprise me if a "few" in the EU especially the UK were not planning to impose another of their "we know best" solutions.

"Gates: Russians will not make big noise"

Spoken like a true American!

"If the EU recognises Kosovo then they will have to recognise North Cyprus" Inanov said.This will happen only if the small countries decide to give up their right of veto and this is not going to happen as it is the only protection they have against the big countries.The north of Cyprus declared its own UDI in 1983 and since then is only recognised by Turkey.When the 40000 islamic
army and the 300000 setlers move back to Turkey then there might be a glimmer of hope for settlement.
Alternatively, the north of
Cyprus will remain a paradise
for drug dealers,human traffickers, fraudsters and etc.

In addition to the map of Czar Dusan's Serbia, here are 2 more maps from before 1912 as was requested:
814AD: http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/europe_814_colbeck.jpg
1265AD (notice Pristina is in Serbia):http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/shepherd/byzantine_empire_1265.jpg
Notice there is no Albania or "Illyria" written anywhere. To those Albanians that suggest that Kosovo was given as a gift to Serbia by the Great Powers in 1913, well I suggest that the country of Albania was given as a gift to you, at that time.
To the Albanian that suggested that Serbia has designs on the countries of Albania and Greece based on Czar Dusan's Empire, that is very laughable and hypocritical of you considering that Albanians are laying claims to all neighbouring countries (Serbia, Macedonia, Montenegro, Greece) based on lands occupied by tribes DURING THE B.C. ERA.
Serbia has NOT made any claims on the countries of Albania or Greece.

I wonder why Serbs can not understand that actually in the long run Kosova's independence, a compromise solution, based on the international standards of rule of law, is in the interests of Serbia itself.

It is clear that Serbia can no longer control Kosova militarly, economically or administratively as it used to do. It is also clear that crimes and atrocities that Serbian Army, Serbian police and militia have done in the last 20 years against Kosovar Albanians are so big that there is no theoritical or practical chance that Serbia would ever be accepted as a governing state over Kosova by its 2 million Albanians which make up more than 92% of the population.

So why Serbia still wishes to look in the past and go after scenarios that may bring devastating consequences for Serbia and the Balkans, and not look towards the future and respect something very simple for others, the right to live in freedom and peace.

The political will of the people of Kosova for self-determination ought to be respected and it very much seems that Serbia is in no position to push further its plans against Kosova. Serbia is in postion now to only choose between Europe or isolation, because Kosova is not in the list they can any longer choose.

I wish that eventually Serbian nationalists understand that others who are not serbs also deserve to live in peace and freedom according to their own terms and political will, and the rights or other people who happen to be non-serbs/ Kosovar Albanians can no longer be aleniated with military force and systematic atrocities, that is just unacceptable by the Western values.

Thank you.

Gezim from Boston

@cima: hey Is yours a fne example of albanian humor??Now Man to Man, as you are asking, let me tell you that Kosovo was, is and will be a Serbian province, like it or not i don't care.

I still see this declarations and seeing how much these arm chair Quarter backs and dreams they have for Kosovo. I hope this business would be settled by now but Russia is not satisfied with the outcome of the SAA papers. That comes to show you how much you can Trust Germany and her kids of the EU. Brussels is not the headquarters of the EU but it is Berlin. Be careful when you deal with Germany 2 World Wars both they lost. For those who will ask what does this have to do with Germany, before Kosovo jump on the Euro band wagon, they used the German Mark. Now they have the Euro, there is a large population of Kosovo Albaninans through out the EU. Germany will control Kosovo not the Kosovo people since they are the strongest.

What could be more terrible than leaving Kosova under Serbia.

Really, nothing can be nore terrible!!

Kushtrim, William Walker's version of events at Racak were totally discredited at the Milosevic trial a few years ago.

For example:
"old men and young boys, all bullet-riddled, some mutilated."

According to the ICTY's own indictment only of the dead was over 65 and only one under 18. The autopsies showed only none had been mutilated and only one had been shot at close range.

30 of the 40 killed were known KLA members and 37 of the 40 had gunpowder residue on their hands.

So no the article doesn't convince me about Kosovo's independence. It just reminds me everything that happened has happened because the likes of Walker wanted it to happen this way.

"Thanks Jovan for showing me some map which includes the whole Albania and Greece inside the Tsar Dusan empire. "

Gijon, I recommend you to read the comments more properly, it´s the same with your history-knowings...

you just did not learn it properly.

koha ditore is no substitute for real and serious history-books.

I hope I made myself clear, and if you still do not get it:
I did not post any map here.


to the guy teaching us about his thousands of years old ancestry.... ( does he really believe that ? )

the Serbs did not come from the Ural... I know your cheap media-hate-speech is teaching you that nonsense...but,
I can assure you, Albanians are not the descendants of the Illyrians.
you can wish as hard as you want...it still is simply an invention of the albanian romanticizm.

go on and educate yourself, if you dare to learn the truth.

Excellent points Enzo.
Recognition of independence is a normative statement that a majority of the world states will undertake despite Russians opposition. The highest test of this acknowledgement is that the free world is behind our independence. A hundred states have lined up already to recognise tiny Kosova against the backdrop of claims from a well-established state. The rationale behind that could only be that internationally Serbia’s reputation precedes her but not only that. Our claim for a separate sovereign authority derives from the universal right of persecuted people.
Oxymoron that you talk about could only be explained by the Russia’s neutered pan-Slavism that has no real underlying principle apart from the old cold war mechanism of gaining tactical strongholds. It is unfortunate that Kosova became a hostage of misconceived Russian resurgence but I guess Russia will find herself in the face of a fait à compli hard to ignore.
You have done it again Tom. It is not hard to see where you are coming from with all your post-imperialist talk and I must admit it is the hardest thing to argue with a Marxist, but don’t you think that it is a bit pretentious to ask Gezim to do more research on his own country.
At last, I am glad that the debate in the last few days has moved on from the speculation about the date to the kind of sovereignty the new state will have. The next logical stage of the debate I guess should focus on when the new state will be able join UN. We are moving on speedily I must say.

Princip,
Re the Lisbon Treaty etc.

The changes in voting procedures as envisaged by the Lisbon Treaty will significantly reduce the powers of small counries like Ireland and Cyprus. As regards the EU recognition of declarations of independence, there is nothing in the treaty that specifically refers to that .
However, under the treaty there is to be a new EU Foreign Minister who will represent and advise the Union on all aspects of foreign policy.This person will have huge powers in formulating the EU's response to international problems.

As regards Cyprus, it is obvious that this small country is seriously irritating to the EU big guns in its attitude to Kosovo. You can be sure that mechanisms will be found under Lisbon (if passed) to ignore the voices of countries like Cyprus whenever the Germans or French want to do something.

I will write lots more on the Lisbon Treaty in the coming weeks and will recommend some websites. Everything is just coming together at the moment.

"What could be more terrible than leaving Kosova under Serbia.

Really, nothing can be nore terrible!!
(femi, 10 February 2008 16:17) "

Actually, I can think of something more terrible, continuing the current rule under Thaci and the KLA gangs.

The bottom line is that Russia doesn't give a damn about international law. All it wants is stubbornly supporting slavic interests in the Balkan. As a country fair enough. As an advocate of international law, NO THANKS. All the talks about about further negotiations are nosense and just to buy time. You can not sell the soap for cheese anymore. These time has gone! We have two sides in solving the Kosova issue. On one side USA and overwhelming majority of EU countries as well the islamic countiries and on the other side Russia, Cyprus and Romania. Answering the "concerns" of Russia and Serbia regarding the other seperatist movements....if they can gather international support why not but I very much doubt that would the case. Kosova is a UNIQUE case! Where in the world NATO had to intervene to stop the ethnic cleansing orchastrated the by the Serbian state? Look at the history of Kosova realistically and will come to the right conclusion, Independence from Serbia is well deserved. Now it is time to show the world that the Kosovars (Albanian and Serbs) can build a modern Kosova without opression and discrimination with a secured future in EU.

And if he thought Russia will do just nothing then he is wrong after Mr Kosachev claimed just the opposite. It seems that Russia has some strategy and I am looking forward seeing what all is about. Of course Kosovo won’t get full independence, it will be supervised one handled by the EU.
(bmrusila, 10 February 2008 12:11)

Russia threatened to do "something" in 1999 as well. This is old music to my ears. As far as independence supervised by EU this is also old news, that what Ahtisaari plan says and what Kosovars have agreed to pursue.
It seems to me that serbs are coming to terms with Kosova's independence to Ahtisaari plan. It is the best plan for minorities rights in Europe. The only thing that serbs loose is territorial claim over Kosova. Independent is independent.
The 17 is coming faster than I thought. All that is left from

Jovan said:"they live there, yes, but it is serbian land"

Jovan did you bring the land of Kosova/o with you when you (the Serbs) left the Ural mountains to come to the Balkans? If you brought that land with you ( which is not physically possible) then yes it makes sense that Kosova/o is Serbian land. If not, it doesn't make sense for one simple reason.

1. The Balkans weren't empty when the Serbs made it here. So that means if Kosova/o was ruled by Serbs at a certain point then they must have taken it away from those who were in the Balkans before the Serbs. That means that Kosova/o was not a Serbian land to start with. So this argument of Kosova/o being Serbian land becomes a nonsense. Serbs steal land from the original inhabitants when they come to the Balkans, call it Serbian land, and then they cry foul when the same land is taken away.

I hope you see my point, which I doubt you will.
(johny,

Following your Albanian logic the Europe would look very differently nowadays. If you knew something about the wars of conquest and that the land belongs to the one who conquer it,if you knew something about the shape of statehood and tribes and the difference of teh two,then you would not post such argument. But the time of the wars of conquest is gone since long time ago. It is 21.century with the UN that should guaratee its memebr states the sovereignity. What the EU is doing today means that every village in this planet can gain independence. What teh EU is doing today is called the talk of the force. And when the talk of the force takes pplace then the end is very well known, unfortunately for all of us.

"Recognition of Kosovo's independence by the world community would set an international precedent,"

This is an oxymoron statement in my opinion. If the world is going to accept the independence of Kosovo, than by virtue that means that, those that are interested in recognizing Kosovo, far outnumber those that are against it. You will never get every country in the world to agree on every issue. Issues that lack consensus amongst the major deciding powers, ought to be decided on the majority rules basis, as is occurring in the Kosovo case.

Furthermore, this statement nullifies the "pandora's box" theory. By virtue of the official Russian's position according to this statement. The "world" would have to accept the declaration of independence by the different independence seeking groups in Bosnia, Abkhazia, South Ossetia, Northern Cyprus et al. before they would become valid. Of course, there is no indication that the majority is willing to acknowledge their declarations at this time, as a result, there is no immediate risk of pandora box.

"I wonder how Albanians can´t understand that Kosovo is simply not theirs.
they live there, yes, but it is serbian land, and given that it is historical serbian territory..." (Jovan, 10 February 2008 14:37)

Jovan, I want to put you a question: man to man. Nobody replied me before.

We can easily agree about the fact that Albanians live in Kosovo. My question is: can you show me an official map before year 1912 which contains Kosovo inside the Serbian official borders? Only one. The very first time Jovan Kosovo was included in the Serbian map was the year 1912.

“I wonder how Albanians can´t understand that Kosovo is simply not theirs.
they live there, yes, but it is serbian land, and given that it is historical serbian territory”

“Historical” based in what? Just because an old Serbian kingdom lost a battle against the Turks in the Middle Ages? Just because of Orthodox churches located there?

People’s life is more important than religious sites, Orthodoxy is in no way not superior to Catholicism or Islam and religion must be separated from state and not be used as parameter in International decisions. Kosovar Albanians are ancient in the region as much as the Slavs, and nowadays most of the people who have been born in and live in Kosovo wants complete independence from Serbia.

Thanks Jovan for showing me some map which includes the whole Albania and Greece inside the Tsar Dusan empire.

For the same reason France could show you maps including the whole Europe under Napoleon.
Empires lasts some seconds in the historical map.

I consider my question not aswered with a Recognized and State Serbian Map.

Regarding of how Kosovo will be Serb even after the Independence day it is to be seen. All the Democratic World is on our side just trying to correct the injustice of maiming the Albanian nation at the beginning of the 20th century.

Again the wishful thinkers feel as if nothing negative will come from K-Indy, despite the straight talk coming from Moscow. This an interesting article from a US think-tank, enjoy!
http://www.stratfor.com/weekly/russia_kosovo_and_asymmetry_perceptions

@cima: hey Is yours a fne example of albanian humor??Now Man to Man, as you are asking, let me tell you that Kosovo was, is and will be a Serbian province, like it or not i don't care.
(Marko, @ The angry Mob, 10 February 2008 18:50)

As a matter of principle The Angry Mob doesn't interest me intellectually or morally. I make an exeption this time: in absence of fact I consider your angriness an Effortless Superiority.

I hope you get my point.

Kosova has always been, is and will be Albanian no matter the conquerers have maimed, killed us and our children.

We've been in our land for thousands of years and we'll be there fo more time than that.

If you find strongman "friends" to conquer Kosovo and Albania you are free to do it again but the Effortless Superiority is not a historical fact.

Your language belongs to the 1912 times rather than 2008.

Even your Russian "friend" is talking of a Serbia face saving solution.

What I don't understand is how Albanians would put their signatures on 1244 which reaffirms Kosovo belonging to the serbs and then spit on the agreement later. Quite frankly, it would have been much easier for the US to take Kosovo back then. The could've bombed Serbia until it gave up Kosovo totally. I honestly don't get it. They put a bunch of legal boundaries in their own path.

A question for the Albanians: Why did Rugova sign 1244? Why not push for total independence back then?(Please answer this for me)

Also, someone mentioned that if Serbia were to sue states through the ICJ, Kosovo should sue Serbia, but this would be impossible since an independent Kosovo will never be a UN Member due to the Russian veto.

@ azir, who wishes a life without serbs, that made me laugh so much! It's obvious that azir doesn't know that 70% of your economy trade is with, ops, SERBIA. While we are indeed the ones who could live happily without you guys, You can't afford to do so. Oh yes I keep forgetting there US and the west that will tell you what to do. Just answer one question: What you guys have been doing in the last 8 years? NISTA! your only business is into crime. You can't produce anything.

Without anger, as you might think, wish you a good day!

To Princip
The UK was never interested in introducing any plan for
the solution of the Cyprus problem.In fact they facilitated the division of the island by moving the Turks from the south into thenorth.With their actions they confirmed the famous UK
foreign dogma( divide & rule) which was applied into India,Pakistan,Israel &
Palestine,North & South Ireland , to name few.The QMV which will be introduced
in 2014 doesn't take away the right of Veto it just simplifies voting in non-core areas.In fact national parliaments have more powers
under the new treaty than previously.With regards to Turkish membership into EU is not going to happen ever for the reason that Germeny and France are against it.Turkey is projected to have a population approaching 100 million by the turn of the century.Since voting under the new treaty depends on the population of the country its obvious that neither France nor Germany are going to allow that.By the way, i do come from the mainland.

Jovan said:"they live there, yes, but it is serbian land"

Jovan did you bring the land of Kosova/o with you when you (the Serbs) left the Ural mountains to come to the Balkans? If you brought that land with you ( which is not physically possible) then yes it makes sense that Kosova/o is Serbian land. If not, it doesn't make sense for one simple reason.

1. The Balkans weren't empty when the Serbs made it here. So that means if Kosova/o was ruled by Serbs at a certain point then they must have taken it away from those who were in the Balkans before the Serbs. That means that Kosova/o was not a Serbian land to start with. So this argument of Kosova/o being Serbian land becomes a nonsense. Serbs steal land from the original inhabitants when they come to the Balkans, call it Serbian land, and then they cry foul when the same land is taken away.

I hope you see my point, which I doubt you will.

All of this declarations are cheap talk from Russia to justify the annexation of Moldova’s Transnistria and Georgia’s Abkhazia and South Ossetia into Russian territory, as the same way that in the old Soviet parlance Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia “voluntairly joined Soviet Union in 1940 before the Great Patriotic War”.

Dragan, Jovan, etc.

Let's not bring the historical apects of the independence, because all the sane academical records show very well who are emigrants in the Balkans.
As far as the map of Dragan: You just proved the Albanians' point of view --the expansionism of the Serbs in the Balkans during history. According to that map Serbia (and your reasoning) Albania and North of Greece belongs to Serbia too.
About the legal bases of declaring the independence, I would say that legal or not legal the Albanians cannot live under Serbian rule, especially after the recent conflicts.
link: http://uk.news.yahoo.com/rtrs/20080210/tpl-uk-serbia-kosovo-walker-interview-43a8d4f.html

And by the way, Albanians would have gone for the independence even if all the world would have been against it.

Marko@the angry mob;You stated Albanians ought to "get a life".You fail to understand we do have our own which DOES NOT include the serbs. The sooner you people accept this the better it will be for everyone. And don't be so "angry" because we reject the Serbs,everyone else in the Yugoslavia did the same.Maybe the serbs ought to get on with their lives without the Albanians.

To all of you that have doubts about Kosovo's independence or preach international law, I would highly recommend reading the following

http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUSL1068087820080210?pageNumber=1&virtualBrandChannel=10005

Following your Albanian logic the Europe would look very differently nowadays. If you knew something about the wars of conquest and that the land belongs to the one who conquer it,if you knew something about the shape of statehood and tribes and the difference of teh two,then you would not post such argument. But the time of the wars of conquest is gone since long time ago. It is 21.century with the UN that should guaratee its memebr states the sovereignity. What the EU is doing today means that every village in this planet can gain independence. What teh EU is doing today is called the talk of the force. And when the talk of the force takes pplace then the end is very well known, unfortunately for all of us.
(bmrusila, 11 February 2008 00:25)

bmrusila, your logic is flawed. There was a war in Kosova/o. The EU and US bombed Serbia to the ground. They won and conquered Kosova/o. That is why there are no Serbian soldiers there but soldiers from Germany, Italy, France, Great Britain, USA. Since they conquered Kosova/o they decide what to do with it. The scenario follows exactly what you described. It was Serbian land because the Serbs fought and conquered it. Well now it is US and EU land because they fought and conquered it, and as a result they do whatever they want with it. Giving it to their ally who fought alongside them, the Kosovar Albanians is their choice. Exactly the same scenario you described. I like it when Serbs become so selective when it come to things that involve them. It is ok to get land that did not originally belong to Serbia but to native inhabitants of the regions before the Serbs made it to the Balkans as long as the Serbs fight and conquer it. However it is not ok to take the very same land away from Serbia even if the others have fought and conquered it. Why? Well because of no reason or because reasons such as now its the 21st century and it is not a time for wars. Well Serbia should have thought about it when it started the Balkan wars against Croatia, Bosnia and Kosova/o. Even in 1999 it wasn't the time for wars but Serbia went ahead and started wars anyway. So what is your point?

What EU and US is doing is what has always been done. Those who win the wars share their new land as they want. What is different this time is that Serbia is on the wrong side of the equation, it is the loser. This is not about every village being independent and other stupid reason like that. This is about, well if you start a war you better be damn sure you win it, or else you will lose territory as it has always happened throughout human history. Nothing different. Sorry to the Serbs who post here but you are not special, you just lost the war.

Jovan there theories out there that state that Serbs come from Iran. Maybe you might agree with that and that's why you don't agree with the theory that Serbs came from what is now the Russian Federation where the Urals are located.
Also it doesn't matter whether you reassure me if we are Illyrians or not. It doesn't even matter in this argument whether we're Illyrians or not. What matters is that the Serbs came to the Balkans in the 7th century. The Balkans were not empty. They stole land from the original inhabitants whoever they were. They called this land Serbian land. This means that this land was not Serbian to start with (talking about Kosova/o here). Now they cry foul when the land they themselves stole is being taken away.

Kosovo´s declaration of independance´is not based on "the international standards of rule of law", I do not know what you mean by this. The independance of a region cannot simply be attained by simply holding a referendum and gaining a majority in vote favoring independance. I believe international law requires an agreement by ALL/BOTH parties involved in the proposal for independance. If this was not the case who is to stop a local leader or regional leader to do the same as in Kosovo and break away from the country they belong to?

"I wonder how Albanians can´t understand that Kosovo is simply not theirs.
they live there, yes, but it is serbian land, and given that it is historical serbian territory..." (Jovan, 10 February 2008 14:37)

Jovan, I want to put you a question: man to man. Nobody replied me before.

We can easily agree about the fact that Albanians live in Kosovo. My question is: can you show me an official map before year 1912 which contains Kosovo inside the Serbian official borders? Only one. The very first time Jovan Kosovo was included in the Serbian map was the year 1912.

What could be more terrible than leaving Kosova under Serbia.

Really, nothing can be nore terrible!!

“I wonder how Albanians can´t understand that Kosovo is simply not theirs.
they live there, yes, but it is serbian land, and given that it is historical serbian territory”

“Historical” based in what? Just because an old Serbian kingdom lost a battle against the Turks in the Middle Ages? Just because of Orthodox churches located there?

People’s life is more important than religious sites, Orthodoxy is in no way not superior to Catholicism or Islam and religion must be separated from state and not be used as parameter in International decisions. Kosovar Albanians are ancient in the region as much as the Slavs, and nowadays most of the people who have been born in and live in Kosovo wants complete independence from Serbia.

The bottom line is that Russia doesn't give a damn about international law. All it wants is stubbornly supporting slavic interests in the Balkan. As a country fair enough. As an advocate of international law, NO THANKS. All the talks about about further negotiations are nosense and just to buy time. You can not sell the soap for cheese anymore. These time has gone! We have two sides in solving the Kosova issue. On one side USA and overwhelming majority of EU countries as well the islamic countiries and on the other side Russia, Cyprus and Romania. Answering the "concerns" of Russia and Serbia regarding the other seperatist movements....if they can gather international support why not but I very much doubt that would the case. Kosova is a UNIQUE case! Where in the world NATO had to intervene to stop the ethnic cleansing orchastrated the by the Serbian state? Look at the history of Kosova realistically and will come to the right conclusion, Independence from Serbia is well deserved. Now it is time to show the world that the Kosovars (Albanian and Serbs) can build a modern Kosova without opression and discrimination with a secured future in EU.

And if he thought Russia will do just nothing then he is wrong after Mr Kosachev claimed just the opposite. It seems that Russia has some strategy and I am looking forward seeing what all is about. Of course Kosovo won’t get full independence, it will be supervised one handled by the EU.
(bmrusila, 10 February 2008 12:11)

Russia threatened to do "something" in 1999 as well. This is old music to my ears. As far as independence supervised by EU this is also old news, that what Ahtisaari plan says and what Kosovars have agreed to pursue.
It seems to me that serbs are coming to terms with Kosova's independence to Ahtisaari plan. It is the best plan for minorities rights in Europe. The only thing that serbs loose is territorial claim over Kosova. Independent is independent.
The 17 is coming faster than I thought. All that is left from

Dragan, Jovan, etc.

Let's not bring the historical apects of the independence, because all the sane academical records show very well who are emigrants in the Balkans.
As far as the map of Dragan: You just proved the Albanians' point of view --the expansionism of the Serbs in the Balkans during history. According to that map Serbia (and your reasoning) Albania and North of Greece belongs to Serbia too.
About the legal bases of declaring the independence, I would say that legal or not legal the Albanians cannot live under Serbian rule, especially after the recent conflicts.
link: http://uk.news.yahoo.com/rtrs/20080210/tpl-uk-serbia-kosovo-walker-interview-43a8d4f.html

And by the way, Albanians would have gone for the independence even if all the world would have been against it.

Excellent points Enzo.
Recognition of independence is a normative statement that a majority of the world states will undertake despite Russians opposition. The highest test of this acknowledgement is that the free world is behind our independence. A hundred states have lined up already to recognise tiny Kosova against the backdrop of claims from a well-established state. The rationale behind that could only be that internationally Serbia’s reputation precedes her but not only that. Our claim for a separate sovereign authority derives from the universal right of persecuted people.
Oxymoron that you talk about could only be explained by the Russia’s neutered pan-Slavism that has no real underlying principle apart from the old cold war mechanism of gaining tactical strongholds. It is unfortunate that Kosova became a hostage of misconceived Russian resurgence but I guess Russia will find herself in the face of a fait à compli hard to ignore.
You have done it again Tom. It is not hard to see where you are coming from with all your post-imperialist talk and I must admit it is the hardest thing to argue with a Marxist, but don’t you think that it is a bit pretentious to ask Gezim to do more research on his own country.
At last, I am glad that the debate in the last few days has moved on from the speculation about the date to the kind of sovereignty the new state will have. The next logical stage of the debate I guess should focus on when the new state will be able join UN. We are moving on speedily I must say.

@cima: hey Is yours a fne example of albanian humor??Now Man to Man, as you are asking, let me tell you that Kosovo was, is and will be a Serbian province, like it or not i don't care.
(Marko, @ The angry Mob, 10 February 2008 18:50)

As a matter of principle The Angry Mob doesn't interest me intellectually or morally. I make an exeption this time: in absence of fact I consider your angriness an Effortless Superiority.

I hope you get my point.

Kosova has always been, is and will be Albanian no matter the conquerers have maimed, killed us and our children.

We've been in our land for thousands of years and we'll be there fo more time than that.

If you find strongman "friends" to conquer Kosovo and Albania you are free to do it again but the Effortless Superiority is not a historical fact.

Your language belongs to the 1912 times rather than 2008.

Even your Russian "friend" is talking of a Serbia face saving solution.

To all of you that have doubts about Kosovo's independence or preach international law, I would highly recommend reading the following

http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUSL1068087820080210?pageNumber=1&virtualBrandChannel=10005

Thanks Jovan for showing me some map which includes the whole Albania and Greece inside the Tsar Dusan empire.

For the same reason France could show you maps including the whole Europe under Napoleon.
Empires lasts some seconds in the historical map.

I consider my question not aswered with a Recognized and State Serbian Map.

Regarding of how Kosovo will be Serb even after the Independence day it is to be seen. All the Democratic World is on our side just trying to correct the injustice of maiming the Albanian nation at the beginning of the 20th century.

"Recognition of Kosovo's independence by the world community would set an international precedent,"

This is an oxymoron statement in my opinion. If the world is going to accept the independence of Kosovo, than by virtue that means that, those that are interested in recognizing Kosovo, far outnumber those that are against it. You will never get every country in the world to agree on every issue. Issues that lack consensus amongst the major deciding powers, ought to be decided on the majority rules basis, as is occurring in the Kosovo case.

Furthermore, this statement nullifies the "pandora's box" theory. By virtue of the official Russian's position according to this statement. The "world" would have to accept the declaration of independence by the different independence seeking groups in Bosnia, Abkhazia, South Ossetia, Northern Cyprus et al. before they would become valid. Of course, there is no indication that the majority is willing to acknowledge their declarations at this time, as a result, there is no immediate risk of pandora box.

I wonder why Serbs can not understand that actually in the long run Kosova's independence, a compromise solution, based on the international standards of rule of law, is in the interests of Serbia itself.

It is clear that Serbia can no longer control Kosova militarly, economically or administratively as it used to do. It is also clear that crimes and atrocities that Serbian Army, Serbian police and militia have done in the last 20 years against Kosovar Albanians are so big that there is no theoritical or practical chance that Serbia would ever be accepted as a governing state over Kosova by its 2 million Albanians which make up more than 92% of the population.

So why Serbia still wishes to look in the past and go after scenarios that may bring devastating consequences for Serbia and the Balkans, and not look towards the future and respect something very simple for others, the right to live in freedom and peace.

The political will of the people of Kosova for self-determination ought to be respected and it very much seems that Serbia is in no position to push further its plans against Kosova. Serbia is in postion now to only choose between Europe or isolation, because Kosova is not in the list they can any longer choose.

I wish that eventually Serbian nationalists understand that others who are not serbs also deserve to live in peace and freedom according to their own terms and political will, and the rights or other people who happen to be non-serbs/ Kosovar Albanians can no longer be aleniated with military force and systematic atrocities, that is just unacceptable by the Western values.

Thank you.

Gezim from Boston

Jovan said:"they live there, yes, but it is serbian land"

Jovan did you bring the land of Kosova/o with you when you (the Serbs) left the Ural mountains to come to the Balkans? If you brought that land with you ( which is not physically possible) then yes it makes sense that Kosova/o is Serbian land. If not, it doesn't make sense for one simple reason.

1. The Balkans weren't empty when the Serbs made it here. So that means if Kosova/o was ruled by Serbs at a certain point then they must have taken it away from those who were in the Balkans before the Serbs. That means that Kosova/o was not a Serbian land to start with. So this argument of Kosova/o being Serbian land becomes a nonsense. Serbs steal land from the original inhabitants when they come to the Balkans, call it Serbian land, and then they cry foul when the same land is taken away.

I hope you see my point, which I doubt you will.

Marko@the angry mob;You stated Albanians ought to "get a life".You fail to understand we do have our own which DOES NOT include the serbs. The sooner you people accept this the better it will be for everyone. And don't be so "angry" because we reject the Serbs,everyone else in the Yugoslavia did the same.Maybe the serbs ought to get on with their lives without the Albanians.

Albanians are simply wasting our time! Get a life!

All of this declarations are cheap talk from Russia to justify the annexation of Moldova’s Transnistria and Georgia’s Abkhazia and South Ossetia into Russian territory, as the same way that in the old Soviet parlance Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia “voluntairly joined Soviet Union in 1940 before the Great Patriotic War”.

Gezim from Boston.... what means far away, right?

I wonder how Albanians can´t understand that Kosovo is simply not theirs.
they live there, yes, but it is serbian land, and given that it is historical serbian territory, you should in your own interest stop those useless attempts to act as a reasonable person, only caring for the good of the Balkans...

if the Albanians chose the wrong way, they will have trouble.
it´s their own choice, and unfortunately the rely on false friends...

just like they did in ottoman times...

because always remember, Serbs won´t let Kosovo go away.

let´s hope real reason will prevail.
we will see.

ps: to all those comments about me sounding nervours or desperate, ...spare your time. I am neither nervous nor desperate, UNSC 1244 is in effect and thats priceless.

you still do not get it, I know.

"If the EU recognises Kosovo then they will have to recognise North Cyprus" Inanov said.This will happen only if the small countries decide to give up their right of veto and this is not going to happen as it is the only protection they have against the big countries.The north of Cyprus declared its own UDI in 1983 and since then is only recognised by Turkey.When the 40000 islamic
army and the 300000 setlers move back to Turkey then there might be a glimmer of hope for settlement.
Alternatively, the north of
Cyprus will remain a paradise
for drug dealers,human traffickers, fraudsters and etc.

Following your Albanian logic the Europe would look very differently nowadays. If you knew something about the wars of conquest and that the land belongs to the one who conquer it,if you knew something about the shape of statehood and tribes and the difference of teh two,then you would not post such argument. But the time of the wars of conquest is gone since long time ago. It is 21.century with the UN that should guaratee its memebr states the sovereignity. What the EU is doing today means that every village in this planet can gain independence. What teh EU is doing today is called the talk of the force. And when the talk of the force takes pplace then the end is very well known, unfortunately for all of us.
(bmrusila, 11 February 2008 00:25)

bmrusila, your logic is flawed. There was a war in Kosova/o. The EU and US bombed Serbia to the ground. They won and conquered Kosova/o. That is why there are no Serbian soldiers there but soldiers from Germany, Italy, France, Great Britain, USA. Since they conquered Kosova/o they decide what to do with it. The scenario follows exactly what you described. It was Serbian land because the Serbs fought and conquered it. Well now it is US and EU land because they fought and conquered it, and as a result they do whatever they want with it. Giving it to their ally who fought alongside them, the Kosovar Albanians is their choice. Exactly the same scenario you described. I like it when Serbs become so selective when it come to things that involve them. It is ok to get land that did not originally belong to Serbia but to native inhabitants of the regions before the Serbs made it to the Balkans as long as the Serbs fight and conquer it. However it is not ok to take the very same land away from Serbia even if the others have fought and conquered it. Why? Well because of no reason or because reasons such as now its the 21st century and it is not a time for wars. Well Serbia should have thought about it when it started the Balkan wars against Croatia, Bosnia and Kosova/o. Even in 1999 it wasn't the time for wars but Serbia went ahead and started wars anyway. So what is your point?

What EU and US is doing is what has always been done. Those who win the wars share their new land as they want. What is different this time is that Serbia is on the wrong side of the equation, it is the loser. This is not about every village being independent and other stupid reason like that. This is about, well if you start a war you better be damn sure you win it, or else you will lose territory as it has always happened throughout human history. Nothing different. Sorry to the Serbs who post here but you are not special, you just lost the war.

Jovan there theories out there that state that Serbs come from Iran. Maybe you might agree with that and that's why you don't agree with the theory that Serbs came from what is now the Russian Federation where the Urals are located.
Also it doesn't matter whether you reassure me if we are Illyrians or not. It doesn't even matter in this argument whether we're Illyrians or not. What matters is that the Serbs came to the Balkans in the 7th century. The Balkans were not empty. They stole land from the original inhabitants whoever they were. They called this land Serbian land. This means that this land was not Serbian to start with (talking about Kosova/o here). Now they cry foul when the land they themselves stole is being taken away.

"Kosovo will not get full independence on Feb 17. Russia has a prepared position in the event of a proclamation of independence," Kosachev concluded.
Albanians can keep on making up dates. Sooner than later they will accept Americas empty promises. Time to rename Clinton Blvd to Putin Blvd.

Gezim,
Your arguments are clear, reasoned and moderate in tone. All to be welcomed. However your exposition of the facts is highly selective and you are ignoring the likely consequences of your thesis. I will just mention two things:
1. You speak of the "atrocities" committed by Serbian security forces on the Albanian population over "20 years". Why, I ask you, have hundreds of thousands of Serbs left Kosovo in recent dacades. It was not for economic reasons as this would have also have meant droves of Albanians leaving the province. For the most part it was because they were living in a hostile environment where their personal and family security was under threat every day of the week.

Do some research on violence in the province throughout the eighties and nineties and you will find out for yourself. I will leave it at that, but they were terrible times for the Serb people of Kosovo with murder, burnings, assault and intimidation being very much a part of daily life.

2. You say that non-Serbs "deserve to live in peace and freedom according to their own terms and political will". Nobody would want anyone else to live without peace and freedom, but if every ethnic group is allowed to live according to "their own terms", then every national minority worldwide would be entitled to independence. This is the Pandora's Box that Kosovo independence could unleash. It is why we have international law, and once exceptions are made, the precedent is set.

Once again Mr Sutanovac is being naïve to trust NATO’s assurances for maintaining peace and stability in Kosovo. KFOR failed to provide security each time the violence broke out, not to mention the sporadic attacks against Serbian minority that occur on the nearly daily basis. But lets see what will Sutanovac explain when KFOR fail to protect Serbs after 17th February and how will he react.

As for Mr Gates, I must ask what he was having in mind saying Russia won’t make big noise. Did he maybe think that Russia will declare war? Nonsense! And if he thought Russia will do just nothing then he is wrong after Mr Kosachev claimed just the opposite. It seems that Russia has some strategy and I am looking forward seeing what all is about. Of course Kosovo won’t get full independence, it will be supervised one handled by the EU.

@cima: hey Is yours a fne example of albanian humor??Now Man to Man, as you are asking, let me tell you that Kosovo was, is and will be a Serbian province, like it or not i don't care.

So Pristina declares, Washington recognizes, Mitrovica ignores, Belgrade moves in, Brussels complains, Moscow intervenes, the EU keeps the peace, while the UN partitions.

Makes sense to me. I've resigned myself to it.

Again the wishful thinkers feel as if nothing negative will come from K-Indy, despite the straight talk coming from Moscow. This an interesting article from a US think-tank, enjoy!
http://www.stratfor.com/weekly/russia_kosovo_and_asymmetry_perceptions

To Princip
The UK was never interested in introducing any plan for
the solution of the Cyprus problem.In fact they facilitated the division of the island by moving the Turks from the south into thenorth.With their actions they confirmed the famous UK
foreign dogma( divide & rule) which was applied into India,Pakistan,Israel &
Palestine,North & South Ireland , to name few.The QMV which will be introduced
in 2014 doesn't take away the right of Veto it just simplifies voting in non-core areas.In fact national parliaments have more powers
under the new treaty than previously.With regards to Turkish membership into EU is not going to happen ever for the reason that Germeny and France are against it.Turkey is projected to have a population approaching 100 million by the turn of the century.Since voting under the new treaty depends on the population of the country its obvious that neither France nor Germany are going to allow that.By the way, i do come from the mainland.

In addition to the map of Czar Dusan's Serbia, here are 2 more maps from before 1912 as was requested:
814AD: http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/europe_814_colbeck.jpg
1265AD (notice Pristina is in Serbia):http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/shepherd/byzantine_empire_1265.jpg
Notice there is no Albania or "Illyria" written anywhere. To those Albanians that suggest that Kosovo was given as a gift to Serbia by the Great Powers in 1913, well I suggest that the country of Albania was given as a gift to you, at that time.
To the Albanian that suggested that Serbia has designs on the countries of Albania and Greece based on Czar Dusan's Empire, that is very laughable and hypocritical of you considering that Albanians are laying claims to all neighbouring countries (Serbia, Macedonia, Montenegro, Greece) based on lands occupied by tribes DURING THE B.C. ERA.
Serbia has NOT made any claims on the countries of Albania or Greece.

"Gates: Russians will not make big noise"

Spoken like a true American!

I still see this declarations and seeing how much these arm chair Quarter backs and dreams they have for Kosovo. I hope this business would be settled by now but Russia is not satisfied with the outcome of the SAA papers. That comes to show you how much you can Trust Germany and her kids of the EU. Brussels is not the headquarters of the EU but it is Berlin. Be careful when you deal with Germany 2 World Wars both they lost. For those who will ask what does this have to do with Germany, before Kosovo jump on the Euro band wagon, they used the German Mark. Now they have the Euro, there is a large population of Kosovo Albaninans through out the EU. Germany will control Kosovo not the Kosovo people since they are the strongest.

gjon cima,

Are you kidding me? You clearly have not looked if you have not found thousand year old maps which show Kosovo as part of the Serbian Empire. Here is one for you.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbian_Empire
In the thirteenth century, Kosovo became the heart of the Serbian political and religious life, with the Šar mountain becoming the political center of the Serbian rulers. These are facts, not fairy tales like some albanians post on here to try to change histry. It is just more proof that Kosovo has always been Serbian, and always will be.
Cheers!

Well lets just see what happens come the 17th February - what is for certain is that the status limbo will continue 1244 remains and that is the huge joke of this mission INLEX (lawless) Kosovo - not even the old rock band Status Quo had so many comebacks!!!

Leonidas, I think Russians are hinting at future problems that Cyprus needs to be aware of for their own protection - what will be the case if the Lisbon treaty is accepted and ratified ? Could the Cypriots lose their right to veto - all "equal" partners in the EU big or small supposedly. However, importantly the small need to ensure they have not signed away their rights.

Whats your take Tom - could this been another shortcoming of the Lisbon treaty? Cyprus might have an illegal independent North Cyprus imposed upon it once they lose their veto. We all know what majority voting means in reality the big ("more equal then others") states dictate and arm twist a few small states to accept their "wisdom" on foreign policy! The Russians are hinting at future events that the EU technocrats will instigate next - many of them believe the Cypriots are the "troublemakers" just because they have stood up for principle. Leonidas, not sure if you are from the mainland or Cyprus but I guess this would be of interest either way;
Restart the talks, David Hannay
http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/david_hannay/2008/02/restart_the_talks.html

It really would not surprise me if a "few" in the EU especially the UK were not planning to impose another of their "we know best" solutions.

Princip,
Re the Lisbon Treaty etc.

The changes in voting procedures as envisaged by the Lisbon Treaty will significantly reduce the powers of small counries like Ireland and Cyprus. As regards the EU recognition of declarations of independence, there is nothing in the treaty that specifically refers to that .
However, under the treaty there is to be a new EU Foreign Minister who will represent and advise the Union on all aspects of foreign policy.This person will have huge powers in formulating the EU's response to international problems.

As regards Cyprus, it is obvious that this small country is seriously irritating to the EU big guns in its attitude to Kosovo. You can be sure that mechanisms will be found under Lisbon (if passed) to ignore the voices of countries like Cyprus whenever the Germans or French want to do something.

I will write lots more on the Lisbon Treaty in the coming weeks and will recommend some websites. Everything is just coming together at the moment.

Kushtrim, William Walker's version of events at Racak were totally discredited at the Milosevic trial a few years ago.

For example:
"old men and young boys, all bullet-riddled, some mutilated."

According to the ICTY's own indictment only of the dead was over 65 and only one under 18. The autopsies showed only none had been mutilated and only one had been shot at close range.

30 of the 40 killed were known KLA members and 37 of the 40 had gunpowder residue on their hands.

So no the article doesn't convince me about Kosovo's independence. It just reminds me everything that happened has happened because the likes of Walker wanted it to happen this way.

Jovan said:"they live there, yes, but it is serbian land"

Jovan did you bring the land of Kosova/o with you when you (the Serbs) left the Ural mountains to come to the Balkans? If you brought that land with you ( which is not physically possible) then yes it makes sense that Kosova/o is Serbian land. If not, it doesn't make sense for one simple reason.

1. The Balkans weren't empty when the Serbs made it here. So that means if Kosova/o was ruled by Serbs at a certain point then they must have taken it away from those who were in the Balkans before the Serbs. That means that Kosova/o was not a Serbian land to start with. So this argument of Kosova/o being Serbian land becomes a nonsense. Serbs steal land from the original inhabitants when they come to the Balkans, call it Serbian land, and then they cry foul when the same land is taken away.

I hope you see my point, which I doubt you will.
(johny,

Following your Albanian logic the Europe would look very differently nowadays. If you knew something about the wars of conquest and that the land belongs to the one who conquer it,if you knew something about the shape of statehood and tribes and the difference of teh two,then you would not post such argument. But the time of the wars of conquest is gone since long time ago. It is 21.century with the UN that should guaratee its memebr states the sovereignity. What the EU is doing today means that every village in this planet can gain independence. What teh EU is doing today is called the talk of the force. And when the talk of the force takes pplace then the end is very well known, unfortunately for all of us.

"Thanks Jovan for showing me some map which includes the whole Albania and Greece inside the Tsar Dusan empire. "

Gijon, I recommend you to read the comments more properly, it´s the same with your history-knowings...

you just did not learn it properly.

koha ditore is no substitute for real and serious history-books.

I hope I made myself clear, and if you still do not get it:
I did not post any map here.


to the guy teaching us about his thousands of years old ancestry.... ( does he really believe that ? )

the Serbs did not come from the Ural... I know your cheap media-hate-speech is teaching you that nonsense...but,
I can assure you, Albanians are not the descendants of the Illyrians.
you can wish as hard as you want...it still is simply an invention of the albanian romanticizm.

go on and educate yourself, if you dare to learn the truth.

"What could be more terrible than leaving Kosova under Serbia.

Really, nothing can be nore terrible!!
(femi, 10 February 2008 16:17) "

Actually, I can think of something more terrible, continuing the current rule under Thaci and the KLA gangs.

What I don't understand is how Albanians would put their signatures on 1244 which reaffirms Kosovo belonging to the serbs and then spit on the agreement later. Quite frankly, it would have been much easier for the US to take Kosovo back then. The could've bombed Serbia until it gave up Kosovo totally. I honestly don't get it. They put a bunch of legal boundaries in their own path.

A question for the Albanians: Why did Rugova sign 1244? Why not push for total independence back then?(Please answer this for me)

Also, someone mentioned that if Serbia were to sue states through the ICJ, Kosovo should sue Serbia, but this would be impossible since an independent Kosovo will never be a UN Member due to the Russian veto.

@ azir, who wishes a life without serbs, that made me laugh so much! It's obvious that azir doesn't know that 70% of your economy trade is with, ops, SERBIA. While we are indeed the ones who could live happily without you guys, You can't afford to do so. Oh yes I keep forgetting there US and the west that will tell you what to do. Just answer one question: What you guys have been doing in the last 8 years? NISTA! your only business is into crime. You can't produce anything.

Without anger, as you might think, wish you a good day!

Kosovo´s declaration of independance´is not based on "the international standards of rule of law", I do not know what you mean by this. The independance of a region cannot simply be attained by simply holding a referendum and gaining a majority in vote favoring independance. I believe international law requires an agreement by ALL/BOTH parties involved in the proposal for independance. If this was not the case who is to stop a local leader or regional leader to do the same as in Kosovo and break away from the country they belong to?