"Northern Kosovo for Preševo Valley"

Ha,this guy is funny indeed.Why the hell would Serbia give so called "valley",region that it fully controls, for northern Kosovo that Albanians don't control at all?!?How many of you can cross bridge and go to northern Mitrovica?Serbs there use dinars,drive cars with serbian plates etc.And on the other side "valley" is under full control of serbian police,gendarmerie and army.The point is:you can forget northern Kosovo as well as the so called "valley"!

I fully agree with this deal, as long as Greece takes the Greek part of todays Southern Albania, (N. Epirus).

Ahilleas,
If this happens, then Kosova must join to Albania, and finally Turkey should take back it's islands which Greece controls them now.

fully agree with this deal, as long as Greece takes the Greek part of todays Southern Albania, (N. Epirus).
(Ahilleas, 17. August 2007 12:54)


How about Albania to take the Southern Epirus (Chameria)? :)

We want everything from Lubljana to Istabul.

We wouldnt mind a part of Australia too.

Ahilleas, dont be ridicuouls please.

Ahileas you can dream on my friend. There are only 100 thousand Greeks in Albania, they are represented in the parliament, they have always been included in the government, they have their schools, newspapers and if anything they are treated better than ordinary Albanians just because they are a minority. And they have never asked to seccede from Albania. As for the other half a million Greeks in Albania... I simply don't know where they have been hiding because you don't see them. According to Greek nationalists I would be one of those lost tribes of the Greeks by virtue of the fact that I am Orthodox. Well sorry to dissapoint you but Orthodox doesn't mean Greek. I ain't a Greek and I am never gonna be one either.

Despite such an absurd suggestion which is the same as a robber saying "well you can keep £10 pounds of the £100 I am taking off you as long as you give me the pin number for your card so I can get another tenner from the machine!" the positive thing is that it is clear that some of the local politicians in the Serbian province are willing to discuss another option - which is good all the same and hopefully they can be persuaded by their US buddies that there is all to gain by discussing all possible options, combinations and avenues to resolve and find "compromise" but it must be based on international law for it to be passed in the UN and not set any precedent.

An admission that the case for a unilateral declaration of independence is weak and is no longer a viable option.

The preferable solution for the Kosovo Albanian leadership is to somehow get Serbia to voluntarily relinquish a part of its territory with this offer of a trade. A sleight of hand trick though, as the Kosovo Albanian leadership does not actually have anything to trade with, except threats of violence.

Serbia should very politely decline the offer and continue to negotiate in good faith. It's true that Serbia may risk a delay in EU accession, a small price to pay for maintaining territorial integrity.

ha ha ha, i got a better one: "northern-kosovo" stays as presevo or the rest of kosovo serbian!

Hey Ahilleas,do you know how many illegal Albanian immigrants infiltrated in Greece by now?I think the number is pretty big,isn't it?When will your government kick them out and deport them back where they came from?Then you should build the wall towards them like USA are doing right now on Rio Grande.So they can enjoy in their beloved Albania,with beautiful coastline...

Personaly,i am quite sure that Albanians are actually comming from Atlantis...and outer space too!I am sure they are oldest living form in Milky Way galaxy:-)

Ahilleas, you're absolutely correct to raise this issue. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

Greece should make it a pre-condition of Albania's accession to the EU that they cede full autonomy to Northern Epirus, with an immediate withdrawal of all ethnic-Albanian police, military and government structures.

After a short period of self-government, say 12 months, Northern Epirus should become fully independent, with the right to rejoin Greece.

The same should go for Skadar. There are at least 100,000 Serbs living there, totally repressed. They have been forced to deny their ethnicity, language, culture, change their names.

With the Kosovo Albanians setting the precedent, there is absolutely no reason to accept Albania's current borders and internal structure any longer.

Lazer
"In KosovA they(SERBS) still have their lands, houses and hopefully the reconciliation will be sped up.
Once INDEPENDENT, and in EU, the economy will flourish and people will go back to living their lifes."

First off, unless Kosovo remains a part of Serbia, humans will live on Pluto before Kosovo is integrated into the EU.

"It will pu to an end the whole fiasco of the 90's and finally be a European Country not only a Balkan Country."

All countries in the Balkans ARE, WERE, and always will be European countries.

This is clearely sending a signal to Belgrade that Albans are getting desperate to suggest something other then complete independece. If they are willing to settle for partition... what else are they willing to settle for?

This would be the logic behind partitioning. Is Serbia will persist, the Pandora box will be opened and then the real geopolitics will begin. Albanians are favorised because thir lands have a geographical continuum.
In this case the indipendence of Kosova would be the best scenario even for the Serbs.

I agree with you there Tex. Let the K-Albanians and the Serbs show their respective hands and from there let the real talks, which should be open, honest and transparent begin. No more beating around the bush, no more interfering from the US/EU/NATO/Russia. Each sides place on the table their respective positions and hammer out a deal and compromise. Its the only way. The way I see it, there are 3 options. 1) Independence for Kosovo with substantial autonomy for K-Serbs, 2) Partition and 3) Kosovo-Methojia to remain within Serbia but with K-Albanians given maximum autonomy including substantial representation in Serb parliament and allocated senior ministerial government posts in Belgrade government. The 1st option is the intransigent K-Albanian poistion while the last maybe the likely poistion of Belgrade. Interesting times ahead.

Ahilleas, don't you think Greece has grabbed enough Albaian territories allready?

Dear Shquip,

Papulias an albanian?
Isnt that close to Sceince Fiction, or what?

Actually i am from Ioannina, and the city apart from the known story of Ali Pasa, the great turk-albanian tyrant has no other connections with albanian.

The landlords you are talking about, were just muslim converts that literaly used rob the Epirotan land before and during the Ottomans ruled the place.

Thomas Preljubovic a reknown Serb Despot of Ioannina, gave homeric fights against the albanian thieves of the time.

As for Greek presence in todays albania, go visit Apolonia, the only scripts found is pure Greek.

So the Greek presence sure has been continuous since ancient times.

To all Greeks in this forum,

'Do not talk about rope in the house of the hangman'

This applies to all of us Greeks, we lost Contantinoupolis, Smirni, North Cyprus and still talk about nationalism.
Our leaders never had the stomach to defend these sacred lands.

Let the Albanians dig their own graves by having territorial demands, we were like that some years ago and had all the international support too, but one day everybody turned their backs on us.

Very soon Albanian Kossovars will be begging to keep the south part of Kossovo.

"Northern Kosovo for Presevo Valley"?
I suggest this.
Independance for part of Serbia, for independance for parts of Bosnia and Croatia.

Does this mean that KosovA will have a new neighbour....BULGARIA?
I don know about that.
In any case, INDEPENDENCE that will be supervised for 10 years will help re-integrate Serbs in the North and they will soon come to realisation that they are better of in KosovA then in Serbia.
In KosovA they(SERBS) still have their lands, houses and hopefully the reconciliation will be sped up.
Once INDEPENDENT, and in EU, the economy will flourish and people will go back to living their lifes.
This is good for Serbia in many aspects.
It will pu to an end the whole fiasco of the 90's and finally be a European Country not only a Balkan Country.
What I have just written, is undoubtfully without any prejudice.

**PEACE**

Raso,
Go on laghing man . Besides your laghing time is counted down.
- to Ahilleas
If are Greek please tell the Serbs, that the first Greek PM Papulias was an Albanian and that still you have to restitute the properties of Albanian (chams) that used to live in Greece. Anyhow for the curiosity of B92 readers most of the Greeks in Albania came in the country to work the fields of the Albanian landlords. Nowdays the Greek minority is mostly living in Grecee and in Albania are not more than 40 - 50.000. And Ioanina the center of Northern Epirus (region of northern Greece) used to be an Albanian city. Therefore to speak for northern Epirus in Albania is a total nonsense.
If you Ahillus are a Serb, you can escape these explanations because these are too much for you. You have already too much headaches to worry about.

"How about Albania to take the Southern Epirus"

Sure any time, only to find out the only albanians in there are only some illegal immigrants without papers which would love to hide their albanian ethnicity. (thats why they learn greek so rapidly).

"It is obvious that Greece was the only European country to manifest approving and backing Miloscevic "the butcher of Balkans". Maybe this is an integral part of your civilisation."
written by Shqiptar as a response to Ahilleas

Shqiptar,

the Greeks are known for their old civilizational achievements, and quite a lot of poeple in the whole world do in fact have much respect for those achievments!
instead of that, Albanians are not really known for any cultural achievements...
as I have posted it a few days ago... one third of all inmates in Switzerlands prisons is of albanian ethnicity!
think it over, before you write about brutality.
yeah, that´s it...
keep that in mind when you try to make silly remarks about greek civilization in the future.

There are many ethnic groups that would like independence but cannot have it. For instance the Kurds form overwhelming, if not total majorities in Turkey, Iraq and Iran. Despite an oppressed existance, INTERNATIONAL LAW guarantees that their host countries will maintain SOVEREIGNTY over their land.

Albanians, you have lived a much more privileged life in KiM compared to your previous host country of Albania. Why do you think that the world owes you independence?

The sooner you realize that KiM is SOVEREIGN Serbian land,guaranteed under international law, the sooner that all ethnic groups will prosper in the province.

Niall, the EU should look to the Irish for a framework for true negotiations. The solution seemed to be impossible and yet one was found, after many years, which only benefit ordinary people, with no changes to borders.

That is a true precedent for al to follow, not the Pandora's box of imposed illegal declarations of independence or border changes.

"Ahilleas, dont be ridicuouls please."

While it is extremely hard not to be ridiculous in the kingdom of lunacy named "balkan politics", i'll respond to you shortly:

Wait and see what happens after your "Kosova" self declares independence.

Believe me, you dont wanna know, but the KiM albanians seem so blinded that they ignore basic principles of how geopolitical processes carry out.

well then the serbs in bosnia can also split from bosnia

Ahileas: Even though to most Greeks this is herese a lot of your countrymen are actually of Albanian origins, Orthodox Albanians that is. There are a variety of non-Albanian sources (impartial historians and such with no Albanophile attitudes) who say that. Nevertheless if they decided to integrate into Greece and become Greeks, it is up to them and in the end that is what counts. I know that there are Albanians and Serbs and Macedonians that if one were to explore their family history one would find out that their distant origins are actually quite different from their current identity. Still if they think of themselves as Albanians, Greeks or Serbs or whatever, that's what they are. They owe nothing to the people where their great grandfathers came from.
As for the thieves, I guess you know full well that the Greeks were just as good at being thieves and bandits as were the Albanians and Serbs and most Balkan people. Under certain social and living conditions it is quite common for people to resort to banditry. A lot of your freedom fughetrs started their careers in this way, as did many ALbanians and Serbs.
As for ancient Greece well my friend that is nonsense. There was no Greece at the time;, there were Greek city-states and after them came the Roans and about 1000000 other ethnic groups. And in any case those ancient Greeks rarely controlled more than some coastal cities and a small area around them. It would be the same nowdays for Italy to claim the whole Balkans simply because at some time in the past Venice cotrolled most cities in the Adriatic, Ionian and Aegeic litorals.

Ahilleas, that's what your government says. Why do you deny the existence of Albanians Christian Cham population in northwesters region of Greece?! How about those hundreds of thousands of muslim Albanians Chams who were expelled in Albania during the WW2?!!

I don’t see the point of doing this. This is the worst solution for all. Even Ahtisary plan, that gives to much authority to Serb minority, is better and the only solution/compromise. Ahtisari plan is easy to implement and feasible for Kosova, especially for Serbs is all parts of Kosova. I can see the Kosova government implement this after the declared Independence recognised by most powerful and wealthiest countries. Some say Ahtisari plan is dead, I say it is in the freezer waiting for the real moment

Trading territories is not suitable and it is a dangerous precedent for the region, why you all know.

I think that Serbian failed politicians, supported by some in here, have started to threaten NATO and are prepared to sent troops(not themselves) to Kosova. I would like to add to this that there is no need since there are KPS, KPC, NATO, UNMIK.
If Serbia wants troops back to Kosova than has a difficult job on persuading someone to join them, since they are not welcome. They are not welcome form Albanian population that considers Serbian army as a occupying army and of course bridge watchers and many paramilitaries that run the Mitrovica, in fact Serbian army would be competitor to bridge watchers, paramilitary units and gangsters in Mitrovica led by Marko Jaksic.

WOULD ANY OF YOU LIKE PRINCIP, JOVAN, RADE ETC, LEAVE YOUR CONFORTABLE SEAT AND LIFE TO COME TO KOSOVA AND PURSUE THE LOST CAUSE OF THE FAILED POLITICIANS?

Ahilleas
All that matters is that Greece is with us. With Greek support we have an amazing regional ally that is also a member of NATO. However, Greece should be voicing its opinions MUCH more right now. We need all the support we can get and it needs to be LOUD.

Always stand united. We appriciate all of our Greek brothers support throughout the years.

Hellas Orthodoxia
CCCC

It's all serbia, no negotiations whatsoever. Serbs were a majority in Bujanovac at a time, part of the Presovo valley... they were a majority there in 1961, but since albanians in the ex-yu have 10 kids each, they end up being the majority in a matter of time.

It is all Serbia, we must not negotiate anything. Will you negotiate for giving your arm to me if I claim that it is mine? Of course not.

Gent, this "Illirian" story is totally a myth.
No one knows exactly who Illirians were since they never left any monument of civilazation.

Have you ever seen an ancient "Illirian" script?
Tomb? Settlement? Building?
No.
All you can see in todays albania are Ancient Greek monuments.

So, nobody can identify what those Illirians were, and where did they live, etc...
Even if they existed, they surely didnt make much of a difference, so even if todays albanians are indeed descendants of those illirians, it does not mean much.

However, such connection with an unknown old tribe holds no scientific water.

So such claims about Minor Asia are funny. Some say the Greeks came down from the Hungarian steps, some say modern russians descent from balkans. Anyone is entitled to his personal theory, but the reality is what is seen in the monuments.

Thats why you try so hard to erase any Serb cultural presence in the S. Kosovo.
Civilazation is the enemy of brutality.

Gent:
How many "albanian" statues of "Zeus" have you seen?

Personally i think you are Celts, so your best bet would be to contact the now distinct tribes of Normandie and British Isles.

Serbia needs to cut south Kosovo & Presevo Valley in order to move forward. They need to focus on their bread & butter, Vojvodina. What does S-Kosovo have to offer Serbia? Nothing but 2 million albanians that don't contribute to Serbia. What about our monistaries? Well, if you want to see them you need a military convoy just to vist if you even look slavic. Serbia gets a guarantee for its monistries from whatever organazation deals with that. Remember my Serbian brethren Tsar Lazar picked a Serbian kingdom in heaven over earth. Our God is watching and knows of the sacrifices the Serbs have made in the past, present, and our future. I'm proud to be a Serb and my tattoos show it. Serbia & Serbs around the world, even if the world looks down on us for who we are, keep your head up high and be proud to be a serb. God is watching. CCCC!

wow every 2 bit irelevant politician coming in to give their 2 cents worth. K Albanians have been promised the world,they might just end up with an atlas.

Now all options are in table now.

"fully agree with this deal, as long as Greece takes the Greek part of todays Southern Albania"

"well then the serbs in bosnia can also split from bosnia"

OK, and Turkey then takes Komotini and Xanthi from Greece, Bosnia takes Sanjak from Serbia, Hungary takes the northern half of Vojvodina from Serbia, Bosnia also takes about half of Republika Srpska back that used t half non-Serb majorities, before "the Serbs" split from Bosnia, Albania takes a third of Macedonia and bits of Montenegro, Macedonia takes the Macedonian-speaking parts of northern Greece around Florina etc (oh, I bet the last suggestion will get our Greek nationalist up in arms)

Alternatively, we have an independent, non-partitoned Kosova with very large-scale autonomy, even to the point of federated republic if necessary, for the K Serbs, to discourage thse other trends.

Ahilleas,
Can I ask you simple question "from where is Greek origin" If you don't now which I am sure they are from Minor Asia they just cross the see and come to new land in todays greek and they found some people living there and guees who this people are ALBANIANS.Many many years ago long long before greeks Albanian territory where from borders in Austria to todays greek.Ps..Do you now the meaning of word ZEUs if you now?

I didn´t take care who it was,...but writing that todays Greeks are descendants of the Albanians was quite a joke. the only joke that is bigger is the one when Albanians claim to be the descendants of the illyrians...
as to "Paul"´s comment:

"I'm sure the Albanians won't be able to resist the tentation to attack the Serbs sooner or later and then byebye independence. "

there is absolutely no reason to give them the opportunity for doing that, since they are displaying their brutality against non-albanians for 8 years now...
so much for their maturity in regard to political responsibility.

as far as I am concerned, they should get a clear answer, in order to wake up from their childish dreams...
there won´t be such a thing like partition, since there is nothing to divide, it´s all serbian land, and the Albanians are only living there..., they can be autonomous citizens of Serbia, not more.
you ought to keep that in mind.

Who cares where you are from? All that matters is the UN resolution 1244 and that is it. You need to wake up and realise that the demographics change all the time. Its UN resolutions that are keeping some form of peace. Independence is not an option anymore. 99 had nothing to do with albanians. At all. It was all about the Serbs. If they wanted to save lives and help the world by preventing ethnic cleansing they should have interveened in Rawanda. There was no crimes against humanity commited by Serbs. Only by albans and their allies at the time.

Detroit Serb,
Just admit you are an albanian incognito. Considering that Ashtaari plan was destroyed because the world realizes that kosovo is sovereign serbian land, and they cannot change a thing without their approval, you would have us believe that a true serb on the internet would just cut away not only kosovo but presevo which their own army controls? haha detroit "serb," this is called internet trolling. Why don't you propose that Nato has access to serbia proper as well like they wanted under Rambouillet?

The huge Abu Simbel ancient monument in Egypt was physically removed to another location to make way for the Aswan Dam. Modern technology made this possible without damaging these ancient structures.

Perhaps the churches and monasteries south of the Ibar can likewise be physically dismantled and moved to the north.

In the long run this will benefit everyone. Those Albanian extremists who hated the sight of them will not have to see them ever again nor try to destroy them. And Nato and Pristina need not spend huge amounts of money defending these monuments from destruction, these money can instead be spent more productively on jobs, education, health etc. And finally these monuments will be in the hands of those who see them as most precious ie. the Serbs.

This is the only way for the mutual suspicions and recriminations to finally have a chance to subside.

Too much shouting today. I'm staying clear of the discussions, except to note that the Wall Street Journal article excerpts B92 published today can be found in its entirety in one of my comments yesterday if anyone is interested interested: http://www.b92.net/eng/news/comments.php?nav_id=43059

One more thing quick and simple: giving up Northern Kosovo is not a "concession" if one does not have any authority over it. It's about as much of a "concession" as Greece "conceding" Constantinople to Turkey.

B92 you are a joke, you want to be taken seriously but you can't spell a name correctly (Rexhepi).

There will be no partition on the table, do you see how there are 30 posts saying "we'll take this and that?"
Pandora's box. Kosova needs unconditional independence, no partition, if so Kosova needs to get Medvegja, Preseheva, Bujanoc.

Still no partition!!

To Teni:
Did I understand that you are Orthodox. How do you feel when your countrymen are destroying your hertage, I'm assuming you are albanian. I'm Serbian and do not share or could even care less about the Bosnian moslems. My religion and culture are first and foremost.

You cannot really comment on this sort of thing as you would want to know what exactly is meant by the "Preševo Valley" etc.

Ahilleas,
It is your business to be anti-albanian, T don't care about it. It is obvious that Greece was the only European country to manifest approving and backing Miloscevic "the butcher of Balkans". Maybe this is an integral part of your civilisation. Yes in Apolonia there are scripts in old Greek which by the the way is quite different from the nowadays Greek, as there are other distinct ethnographic differences between Greece of today and that of ancient times. Still, it doesn't bother me, as also the fact that the important figures of Greece revival were Albanians such as Bubulina, Boçari, Kolloktroni. There were houndred thousand Albanians (chams) that you expelled in Turkey using the religion as the only criterion, and their properties grabbed by the local population. Greece, did same thing with 50 thousand chams after WWII expelling to Albania and again grabbing their properties. While Albania exactly at the same period gave shelter to thousand of Greek refugies who came in Albania to save their lives during the civil war there. As you are from Ioanina (Dodona at Illyria, Janina in Albanian) you can ask your grandpa and grandma to tell you more from that time.
As far as my "story fiction" about Papulias you can ask the current President. I can tell you that if you go in Arta, Preveza, Pargos you can still hear the Albanian spoken by the inhabitants there.
Anyhow, what is more important now is that two our countries have decided to resolve the problem of property restituition.

Ahilleas,

I understand that my comment hurt your feelings, go in Amazon.com and try to look for a book called "The Albanians: An Ethnic history from Prehistoric Times to the Present" By Edwin E. Jacques.This book was publishet about 10 years or so...firs edition was only 3 thousend books,and all greek comunity like you was so angry thet they collect the money and bought the entire books but is good that the publisher was so happy that they puplished more books
and you now all the books you can't buy because you throw money away.Like you I have my opinion about greek origin"Minor Azia" but I give you one thing when Greeks discovered Writing for thet time whas like revolution and thets why history of greek is known among other nations,but inside those stories are albanian stories that are copied thru the time because greks have no story they used albanian storys. I can give you example Homer do you now the word Homer in albanian means "Hoi mjer" (poure you) because hi was blind man hi went town to town and sang the stores and you know what greeks dit they put his songs in writing..
As far as zeus you are right Zeus it is a albanian prehistoric god every so called today greek gods their name means nothing in greek in albanian language has meaning....thats why in albanin community we have a saying for greeks " O YOU TALKING ABOUT THE THIVES

Jovan,
You are Serb so look to find any argument to hold water for you the land your forefathers stealed and rubbed ( you know what I mean). Futhermore, regarding Greece you better stop advocating because you might be their worst advocate having not a valuable argument. Let Achilleas answer instead.
My remarks are based in history. If you want to discuss based on arguments, go ahead, otherwise don't loose your time and my time as well.
As you answered my message based on my remark for Miloscevic as the 'butcher of Balkans', I would presume that this criminal means smth for you.

Dear all,

We have to study history in order to avoid the mistakes of the past and not to fight. But it's a crime to distort history just in favour of various interests. Additionally it's a pitty to learn history by videogames and TV series like "XENA" ...!!! I don't want to offend anybody but reading some comments made me laugh without stop. If an objective researcher search all serious historical books he/she will find out that Greeks (HELLENES) are the only autochthonous nation in the region. The first writings in Greek language were 6.000 - 7.000 years ago. And yes Ancient Greeks were organised in autonomus City-States and they were fighting each other but they knew that they were Greeks as they had the same calture religion and LANGUAGE. And don't forget that HELLENES changed the world history twice; one in 490 - 479 BC when united they defeneded EUROPE against the Persian Empire and one in 1940 AC when they changed the route of WWII fighting an epic battle against Germany.
Best regards to all and I strongly recomend you to study history written in world recognised books.
P.S. I am not Greek ...!!!

"Hey Ahilleas,do you know how many illegal Albanian immigrants infiltrated in Greece by now?I think the number is pretty big,isn't it?When will your government kick them out and deport them back where they came from?"

Greece is addicted to cheap Albanian labor because, at least some Greeks admit, they (the Greeks) are kind of lazy - or at least to lazy to do the labor.

I don't know people what is going on to the ballkans looks like we will never learn from self's how much brains we have and use for killing's, burnin,destroyen what human maked it and made it ,its the shame .. not even animals dont kill animal as much humans by the era ,its incredible?

sometimes I read your comments for wich other's and it's joke and I'm thinking !here we go hate,hate and hate... I don't know what it going on . I live here in canada and work in constructiom and I'm albanian I often meet greks croations bosnians ,serbians etc why no one say im bad or you are bad no one can't say that because we are to busy working or if you say so such think you are doomed because here law calls that assault so that's the way here works and different contry's too stop the crap let the smart take over and still for the stupid it will have something to do always so work hard and die rich .I MISS YOU SWEET HOME KOSOVA!!!!

Dear BNO,
Thank you vey much for the link. So touchy for a non - Greek as you pretending to be to be at the same time so Greek-oriented as yourself.
But alas, what I have not found in any Greek history book is the explanation why there we have a quite different language of modern Greece from the acient Greece. When it happened, under which circumstances. Furthermore, why, when the ethnographic differences ocurred. And are the above mentined differences quantitively and qualitatively enough to let us conclude that we are not speaking for the same nation. I'm not waiting for any answer from you, BNO, so please don't bother yourself, since the Greeks find themselves puzzled.
But do you see how easy is to overlap national issues in the Balkans. In fact we are supposed to be here and discuss for the possibility of exchange of territories.
I hope this wouldn't affect you.

Now here it is the only way to accomodate the Balkan troubles: Albania takes Kosova without Leposavic and Zvecan but with Bujanovc and Presheva. Substantial autonomy is given for the 100.000 serbs remaining inside the new Albania, and also substantial autonomy is given for the albanian regions of Medvedja, Nis, Vranja and Prokupla in the southern Serbia.
Serbia takes Republika Serbska. Bosnia takes Sandjak. Albania takes western FYROM except for Skopje (which later will be declared an principate such as San Marino. Bulgaria takes Eastern FYROM and Greece takes the southern slice. Albania and Montenegro sign an agreement not to change borders and an albanian minority remains in the cities of Ulqin, Plava, Gucia, Hoti, Gruda, Tivari and Podgorica. Also more rights are provided to the ethnically mixed village of Vraka close to Shkodra in northern Albania where 2123 montenegrins are the 30% of the whole population of the village. In the south direction, Albania takes Epirus and Thesprotia regions which have been occupied by Greece since 1913. Albania also takes its cities of Kosturi and Follorina in northern greece. Substantial autonomy is given to the 6 villages of greek majority in southern Albania. Also substantial autonomy is given to the Attiki region albanian locations such as Plaka, Spata, Luca, the islands of Salamina, Hydra, Specia and the cities of Parga, Arta, Preveza, Filati, Paramithia, Margariti (Margëlliçi), Meçova and Janina.
Do you see now Ahilleas who looses with this game? So better stay there where you are, enjoy what already have and stay quiet not being involved to a problem we albanians have with serbs and not with you.

Dear BNO,
First of all it is a pleasure to discussed with an well educated person as yourself. This means that arguments and not arrogance (what you accused me).
In fact I was addressing to a person that declared himself non-Greek but without showing his nationality (it is a personal matter to be proud or ashamed by oneself nationality). You are declaring "Greeks (HELLENES) are the only autochthonous nation in the region." Honestly, are you really convinced of this statement? Simply, it is a white lie that holds no water. Needlesss to say, that the presence of the Ilyrians is proved to be as old of the Greeks in the region. On the matter, as you are a Greek lover you can consult the ancient Greek sources as Thycidites and Herodotis.
Strange as you were a student of ancient history to miss these references. Furthermore the Illyricum continuity was largely mentioned at the Roman sources as Plinius and new Plinius, to mention just a few.
But what I was refer to was the missing link between ancient and modern Greeks, for which I didn't have any answer yet.
Anyhow, here we deviated from the forum discussion which is the future of Kosova.

Partition, or supervised independence ensuring Serbs and minorities under Pristina have rights and guarantees? Have both!

Just like Belgrade needs to understand that Kosovo is no longer Serbia, Pristina has to understand that N Kosovo is no longer Kosovo.

Trading N Kosovo for Presevo is nonesense because Pristina does not control N Kosovo, while Belgrade does control Presevo. Legally and de facto, N. Kosovo and Presevo are part of Serbia, while Presevo is also part of Serbia proper. The rest of Kosovo is only de facto not part of Serbia.

Both sides need to know that they must give up what they have de facto lost, and accept their commitments in protecting any minorities 'left behind' in their borders.

The basic plan I just outlined is basically Ahtissari's plan allowing N Kosovo to remain in Serbia--a good compromise which politicians will not have the courage to adopt, and which rabid nationalists will instinctively attack.

Serbia should agree to supervised independence, supervised for at leat 10-20 years. Moreover the protection of the Serbs should be carried of by Albanian police. I'm sure the Albanians won't be able to resist the tentation to attack the Serbs sooner or later and then byebye independence.
Otherwise Kosovo will become another Northern Cyprus for as long as there the guaranteeing countries (the US, the EU members) exist i.e. for ever

Rade,

“Serbia should very politely decline the offer and continue to negotiate in good faith. It's true that Serbia may risk a delay in EU accession, a small price to pay for maintaining territorial integrity.”

Even if it, at this moment, sounds pretty persistent, from the BG politicians, in other hand, also sounds desperately! We all know how much Serbia wants to join EU, but BG politicians have no courage to tell that openly, as they fear they will loose political power (last elections in Serbia shows that clearly – radicals won the majority of votes, even though they did not get the power due to unfair and conditioned coalition between Kostunica and Tadic). So, if they do say openly that they would accept EU in exchange for Kosovas independence, they would be overturned by radicals very soon, and lost a power. Actually, imposing Kosovas independence, would, for them be the best scenario, especially after these postponed negotiations, as they could say “they did all what they could”! And, this will actually be the scenario, what will please, both the BG politicians (keep the power) and the west, who do not like the radicals take control of your country.

"Personaly,i am quite sure that Albanians are actually comming from Atlantis...and outer space too!I am sure they are oldest living form in Milky Way galaxy:-)"

Yea I read about that in a paper published by The Serb Academy of Sciences. Artemje was a co-writer.
(Peter, 17. August 2007 18:41)

BNO,

Bravo Bravo I solute you with one applaud, that’s good that you now about Greek mythology, and that mythology belong to Greeks only 000.12%...they are Hellene that is fact but the stories that are in writing is not Hellene…Today’s Greeks are not pure Greek…When Greeks migrated into Balkans, they borrowed many stories and culture and religious, from people that were already there, and this people were Albanians, SORRY do more research, HUMANS COPY ONE ANOTHER IS ARE WAY OF SURVIVING….

Hi there, very intresting topic but much of this exitment is made by the people's comments as well.
I as an outsider see a very clear anti-albanian side were Serbs and Greeks join their ideas on partitioning the Albanian lands and eliminating the threat...but on the other hand the power stands on peoples hands as people control the government and the stability of the region or if we want the opposite then let's go back to 1930 dictatorships and very soon after start another cold war.
In my opinion going back is not a solution for both sides as for us outsiders but the best and the right solution would be to make a Balkan traty were all borders could be on the table and an imposed solution be made as compromis can't be reached...Let's form National Independent States in that region as no other solution will be at no good for none of the sides...
Lets have a Croatia were all the Croats live, and A Bosnia were all Bosnians live, A serbia were all Serbs live, Albania were all Albanians live, Macedonia were all Macedonians live, Bulgaria were all Bulgarisn live, Greece were all the Greeks live and Turkey were all the Turks live...
Sounds Impossible !!!
It is possible but very unwanted by the Serbs and then Greeks as they will loose integrity to a chunk amount of lands, so for a better solution for my Serbs is to accept an Independent Kosovo as soon as posible and continue on living as a good neighbour if they like to keep the Valley, Sandjak and Vojvodina under their national integrity otherwise I see many partitions comming soon within Serbia itself...
Thanks for Reading.

BNO -
you are totaly wrong!
you have only got the principle right, though your knowledge of history is based on unreasoned untrue facts which were placed there to distort reality!
you talk about greeks as if you are talking about yourself.

Dear all

I will give u some links to learn some things about Greece.

Best regards

http://www.fhw.gr/chronos/gr/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Greece

Shqiptar,

I have gratuated from the Department of Classics & Ancient History of Exeter University. So my friend allow me to have a litlle bit more knowledge than you about ancient history !!! But you know I keep no hard feelings for your arogant way of thinking.
About the language matter: do u think that modern English or French are the same with the ancient versions? The language is a living organism that according to scientists is under continuous transformation and developement. It happens to speak English, Greek (modern and ancient) and my native language and I can assure you that there are not so great differences between modern and ancient Greek language. 90% of the modern greek words have ancient origin and roots. And my friend don't forget that 40% or even more of the English language is "stollen" by the Greek language. And off course you can ask some medical doctors, physicists, mathematicians, biologists, genetists, astrophysicists which is the language of science ...

Best regards

First of all the corect spelling is Herodotus and Thoukidides. Secondly Illyrians: Library of Congress article on the ancient Albanians, a name which derives from the name of an Illyrian tribe called the Arber, or Arbereshë, and later Albanoi, that lived near Durrës. The Illyrians were Indo-European tribesmen who appeared in the western part of the Balkan Peninsula about 1000 B.C.
So Illyrians apeared in 1000 B.C. while first evidences of the Greek civilization dated 5000 B.C. or even earlier ... So my friend I rest my case ... And do not forget the theory that Illyrians might were a Greek tribe ... Don't be furious if this theory is right you should be proud ...

This would be the logic behind partitioning. Is Serbia will persist, the Pandora box will be opened and then the real geopolitics will begin. Albanians are favorised because thir lands have a geographical continuum.
In this case the indipendence of Kosova would be the best scenario even for the Serbs.

Does this mean that KosovA will have a new neighbour....BULGARIA?
I don know about that.
In any case, INDEPENDENCE that will be supervised for 10 years will help re-integrate Serbs in the North and they will soon come to realisation that they are better of in KosovA then in Serbia.
In KosovA they(SERBS) still have their lands, houses and hopefully the reconciliation will be sped up.
Once INDEPENDENT, and in EU, the economy will flourish and people will go back to living their lifes.
This is good for Serbia in many aspects.
It will pu to an end the whole fiasco of the 90's and finally be a European Country not only a Balkan Country.
What I have just written, is undoubtfully without any prejudice.

**PEACE**

Ahilleas, you're absolutely correct to raise this issue. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

Greece should make it a pre-condition of Albania's accession to the EU that they cede full autonomy to Northern Epirus, with an immediate withdrawal of all ethnic-Albanian police, military and government structures.

After a short period of self-government, say 12 months, Northern Epirus should become fully independent, with the right to rejoin Greece.

The same should go for Skadar. There are at least 100,000 Serbs living there, totally repressed. They have been forced to deny their ethnicity, language, culture, change their names.

With the Kosovo Albanians setting the precedent, there is absolutely no reason to accept Albania's current borders and internal structure any longer.

I fully agree with this deal, as long as Greece takes the Greek part of todays Southern Albania, (N. Epirus).

Now all options are in table now.

Despite such an absurd suggestion which is the same as a robber saying "well you can keep £10 pounds of the £100 I am taking off you as long as you give me the pin number for your card so I can get another tenner from the machine!" the positive thing is that it is clear that some of the local politicians in the Serbian province are willing to discuss another option - which is good all the same and hopefully they can be persuaded by their US buddies that there is all to gain by discussing all possible options, combinations and avenues to resolve and find "compromise" but it must be based on international law for it to be passed in the UN and not set any precedent.

ha ha ha, i got a better one: "northern-kosovo" stays as presevo or the rest of kosovo serbian!

Ahilleas,
If this happens, then Kosova must join to Albania, and finally Turkey should take back it's islands which Greece controls them now.

Niall, the EU should look to the Irish for a framework for true negotiations. The solution seemed to be impossible and yet one was found, after many years, which only benefit ordinary people, with no changes to borders.

That is a true precedent for al to follow, not the Pandora's box of imposed illegal declarations of independence or border changes.

Dear Shquip,

Papulias an albanian?
Isnt that close to Sceince Fiction, or what?

Actually i am from Ioannina, and the city apart from the known story of Ali Pasa, the great turk-albanian tyrant has no other connections with albanian.

The landlords you are talking about, were just muslim converts that literaly used rob the Epirotan land before and during the Ottomans ruled the place.

Thomas Preljubovic a reknown Serb Despot of Ioannina, gave homeric fights against the albanian thieves of the time.

As for Greek presence in todays albania, go visit Apolonia, the only scripts found is pure Greek.

So the Greek presence sure has been continuous since ancient times.

"fully agree with this deal, as long as Greece takes the Greek part of todays Southern Albania"

"well then the serbs in bosnia can also split from bosnia"

OK, and Turkey then takes Komotini and Xanthi from Greece, Bosnia takes Sanjak from Serbia, Hungary takes the northern half of Vojvodina from Serbia, Bosnia also takes about half of Republika Srpska back that used t half non-Serb majorities, before "the Serbs" split from Bosnia, Albania takes a third of Macedonia and bits of Montenegro, Macedonia takes the Macedonian-speaking parts of northern Greece around Florina etc (oh, I bet the last suggestion will get our Greek nationalist up in arms)

Alternatively, we have an independent, non-partitoned Kosova with very large-scale autonomy, even to the point of federated republic if necessary, for the K Serbs, to discourage thse other trends.

B92 you are a joke, you want to be taken seriously but you can't spell a name correctly (Rexhepi).

There will be no partition on the table, do you see how there are 30 posts saying "we'll take this and that?"
Pandora's box. Kosova needs unconditional independence, no partition, if so Kosova needs to get Medvegja, Preseheva, Bujanoc.

Still no partition!!

An admission that the case for a unilateral declaration of independence is weak and is no longer a viable option.

The preferable solution for the Kosovo Albanian leadership is to somehow get Serbia to voluntarily relinquish a part of its territory with this offer of a trade. A sleight of hand trick though, as the Kosovo Albanian leadership does not actually have anything to trade with, except threats of violence.

Serbia should very politely decline the offer and continue to negotiate in good faith. It's true that Serbia may risk a delay in EU accession, a small price to pay for maintaining territorial integrity.

I agree with you there Tex. Let the K-Albanians and the Serbs show their respective hands and from there let the real talks, which should be open, honest and transparent begin. No more beating around the bush, no more interfering from the US/EU/NATO/Russia. Each sides place on the table their respective positions and hammer out a deal and compromise. Its the only way. The way I see it, there are 3 options. 1) Independence for Kosovo with substantial autonomy for K-Serbs, 2) Partition and 3) Kosovo-Methojia to remain within Serbia but with K-Albanians given maximum autonomy including substantial representation in Serb parliament and allocated senior ministerial government posts in Belgrade government. The 1st option is the intransigent K-Albanian poistion while the last maybe the likely poistion of Belgrade. Interesting times ahead.

Ha,this guy is funny indeed.Why the hell would Serbia give so called "valley",region that it fully controls, for northern Kosovo that Albanians don't control at all?!?How many of you can cross bridge and go to northern Mitrovica?Serbs there use dinars,drive cars with serbian plates etc.And on the other side "valley" is under full control of serbian police,gendarmerie and army.The point is:you can forget northern Kosovo as well as the so called "valley"!

Lazer
"In KosovA they(SERBS) still have their lands, houses and hopefully the reconciliation will be sped up.
Once INDEPENDENT, and in EU, the economy will flourish and people will go back to living their lifes."

First off, unless Kosovo remains a part of Serbia, humans will live on Pluto before Kosovo is integrated into the EU.

"It will pu to an end the whole fiasco of the 90's and finally be a European Country not only a Balkan Country."

All countries in the Balkans ARE, WERE, and always will be European countries.

This is clearely sending a signal to Belgrade that Albans are getting desperate to suggest something other then complete independece. If they are willing to settle for partition... what else are they willing to settle for?

Ahilleas, don't you think Greece has grabbed enough Albaian territories allready?

fully agree with this deal, as long as Greece takes the Greek part of todays Southern Albania, (N. Epirus).
(Ahilleas, 17. August 2007 12:54)


How about Albania to take the Southern Epirus (Chameria)? :)

Ahileas: Even though to most Greeks this is herese a lot of your countrymen are actually of Albanian origins, Orthodox Albanians that is. There are a variety of non-Albanian sources (impartial historians and such with no Albanophile attitudes) who say that. Nevertheless if they decided to integrate into Greece and become Greeks, it is up to them and in the end that is what counts. I know that there are Albanians and Serbs and Macedonians that if one were to explore their family history one would find out that their distant origins are actually quite different from their current identity. Still if they think of themselves as Albanians, Greeks or Serbs or whatever, that's what they are. They owe nothing to the people where their great grandfathers came from.
As for the thieves, I guess you know full well that the Greeks were just as good at being thieves and bandits as were the Albanians and Serbs and most Balkan people. Under certain social and living conditions it is quite common for people to resort to banditry. A lot of your freedom fughetrs started their careers in this way, as did many ALbanians and Serbs.
As for ancient Greece well my friend that is nonsense. There was no Greece at the time;, there were Greek city-states and after them came the Roans and about 1000000 other ethnic groups. And in any case those ancient Greeks rarely controlled more than some coastal cities and a small area around them. It would be the same nowdays for Italy to claim the whole Balkans simply because at some time in the past Venice cotrolled most cities in the Adriatic, Ionian and Aegeic litorals.

Ahilleas, that's what your government says. Why do you deny the existence of Albanians Christian Cham population in northwesters region of Greece?! How about those hundreds of thousands of muslim Albanians Chams who were expelled in Albania during the WW2?!!

I don’t see the point of doing this. This is the worst solution for all. Even Ahtisary plan, that gives to much authority to Serb minority, is better and the only solution/compromise. Ahtisari plan is easy to implement and feasible for Kosova, especially for Serbs is all parts of Kosova. I can see the Kosova government implement this after the declared Independence recognised by most powerful and wealthiest countries. Some say Ahtisari plan is dead, I say it is in the freezer waiting for the real moment

Trading territories is not suitable and it is a dangerous precedent for the region, why you all know.

I think that Serbian failed politicians, supported by some in here, have started to threaten NATO and are prepared to sent troops(not themselves) to Kosova. I would like to add to this that there is no need since there are KPS, KPC, NATO, UNMIK.
If Serbia wants troops back to Kosova than has a difficult job on persuading someone to join them, since they are not welcome. They are not welcome form Albanian population that considers Serbian army as a occupying army and of course bridge watchers and many paramilitaries that run the Mitrovica, in fact Serbian army would be competitor to bridge watchers, paramilitary units and gangsters in Mitrovica led by Marko Jaksic.

WOULD ANY OF YOU LIKE PRINCIP, JOVAN, RADE ETC, LEAVE YOUR CONFORTABLE SEAT AND LIFE TO COME TO KOSOVA AND PURSUE THE LOST CAUSE OF THE FAILED POLITICIANS?

Ahilleas
All that matters is that Greece is with us. With Greek support we have an amazing regional ally that is also a member of NATO. However, Greece should be voicing its opinions MUCH more right now. We need all the support we can get and it needs to be LOUD.

Always stand united. We appriciate all of our Greek brothers support throughout the years.

Hellas Orthodoxia
CCCC

Serbia should agree to supervised independence, supervised for at leat 10-20 years. Moreover the protection of the Serbs should be carried of by Albanian police. I'm sure the Albanians won't be able to resist the tentation to attack the Serbs sooner or later and then byebye independence.
Otherwise Kosovo will become another Northern Cyprus for as long as there the guaranteeing countries (the US, the EU members) exist i.e. for ever

Ahilleas,
Can I ask you simple question "from where is Greek origin" If you don't now which I am sure they are from Minor Asia they just cross the see and come to new land in todays greek and they found some people living there and guees who this people are ALBANIANS.Many many years ago long long before greeks Albanian territory where from borders in Austria to todays greek.Ps..Do you now the meaning of word ZEUs if you now?

Gent:
How many "albanian" statues of "Zeus" have you seen?

Personally i think you are Celts, so your best bet would be to contact the now distinct tribes of Normandie and British Isles.

Serbia needs to cut south Kosovo & Presevo Valley in order to move forward. They need to focus on their bread & butter, Vojvodina. What does S-Kosovo have to offer Serbia? Nothing but 2 million albanians that don't contribute to Serbia. What about our monistaries? Well, if you want to see them you need a military convoy just to vist if you even look slavic. Serbia gets a guarantee for its monistries from whatever organazation deals with that. Remember my Serbian brethren Tsar Lazar picked a Serbian kingdom in heaven over earth. Our God is watching and knows of the sacrifices the Serbs have made in the past, present, and our future. I'm proud to be a Serb and my tattoos show it. Serbia & Serbs around the world, even if the world looks down on us for who we are, keep your head up high and be proud to be a serb. God is watching. CCCC!

I don't know people what is going on to the ballkans looks like we will never learn from self's how much brains we have and use for killing's, burnin,destroyen what human maked it and made it ,its the shame .. not even animals dont kill animal as much humans by the era ,its incredible?

sometimes I read your comments for wich other's and it's joke and I'm thinking !here we go hate,hate and hate... I don't know what it going on . I live here in canada and work in constructiom and I'm albanian I often meet greks croations bosnians ,serbians etc why no one say im bad or you are bad no one can't say that because we are to busy working or if you say so such think you are doomed because here law calls that assault so that's the way here works and different contry's too stop the crap let the smart take over and still for the stupid it will have something to do always so work hard and die rich .I MISS YOU SWEET HOME KOSOVA!!!!

"Northern Kosovo for Presevo Valley"?
I suggest this.
Independance for part of Serbia, for independance for parts of Bosnia and Croatia.

We want everything from Lubljana to Istabul.

We wouldnt mind a part of Australia too.

Ahilleas, dont be ridicuouls please.

Ahileas you can dream on my friend. There are only 100 thousand Greeks in Albania, they are represented in the parliament, they have always been included in the government, they have their schools, newspapers and if anything they are treated better than ordinary Albanians just because they are a minority. And they have never asked to seccede from Albania. As for the other half a million Greeks in Albania... I simply don't know where they have been hiding because you don't see them. According to Greek nationalists I would be one of those lost tribes of the Greeks by virtue of the fact that I am Orthodox. Well sorry to dissapoint you but Orthodox doesn't mean Greek. I ain't a Greek and I am never gonna be one either.

Raso,
Go on laghing man . Besides your laghing time is counted down.
- to Ahilleas
If are Greek please tell the Serbs, that the first Greek PM Papulias was an Albanian and that still you have to restitute the properties of Albanian (chams) that used to live in Greece. Anyhow for the curiosity of B92 readers most of the Greeks in Albania came in the country to work the fields of the Albanian landlords. Nowdays the Greek minority is mostly living in Grecee and in Albania are not more than 40 - 50.000. And Ioanina the center of Northern Epirus (region of northern Greece) used to be an Albanian city. Therefore to speak for northern Epirus in Albania is a total nonsense.
If you Ahillus are a Serb, you can escape these explanations because these are too much for you. You have already too much headaches to worry about.

You cannot really comment on this sort of thing as you would want to know what exactly is meant by the "Preševo Valley" etc.

Partition, or supervised independence ensuring Serbs and minorities under Pristina have rights and guarantees? Have both!

Just like Belgrade needs to understand that Kosovo is no longer Serbia, Pristina has to understand that N Kosovo is no longer Kosovo.

Trading N Kosovo for Presevo is nonesense because Pristina does not control N Kosovo, while Belgrade does control Presevo. Legally and de facto, N. Kosovo and Presevo are part of Serbia, while Presevo is also part of Serbia proper. The rest of Kosovo is only de facto not part of Serbia.

Both sides need to know that they must give up what they have de facto lost, and accept their commitments in protecting any minorities 'left behind' in their borders.

The basic plan I just outlined is basically Ahtissari's plan allowing N Kosovo to remain in Serbia--a good compromise which politicians will not have the courage to adopt, and which rabid nationalists will instinctively attack.

"Ahilleas, dont be ridicuouls please."

While it is extremely hard not to be ridiculous in the kingdom of lunacy named "balkan politics", i'll respond to you shortly:

Wait and see what happens after your "Kosova" self declares independence.

Believe me, you dont wanna know, but the KiM albanians seem so blinded that they ignore basic principles of how geopolitical processes carry out.

well then the serbs in bosnia can also split from bosnia

"How about Albania to take the Southern Epirus"

Sure any time, only to find out the only albanians in there are only some illegal immigrants without papers which would love to hide their albanian ethnicity. (thats why they learn greek so rapidly).

The huge Abu Simbel ancient monument in Egypt was physically removed to another location to make way for the Aswan Dam. Modern technology made this possible without damaging these ancient structures.

Perhaps the churches and monasteries south of the Ibar can likewise be physically dismantled and moved to the north.

In the long run this will benefit everyone. Those Albanian extremists who hated the sight of them will not have to see them ever again nor try to destroy them. And Nato and Pristina need not spend huge amounts of money defending these monuments from destruction, these money can instead be spent more productively on jobs, education, health etc. And finally these monuments will be in the hands of those who see them as most precious ie. the Serbs.

This is the only way for the mutual suspicions and recriminations to finally have a chance to subside.

"Hey Ahilleas,do you know how many illegal Albanian immigrants infiltrated in Greece by now?I think the number is pretty big,isn't it?When will your government kick them out and deport them back where they came from?"

Greece is addicted to cheap Albanian labor because, at least some Greeks admit, they (the Greeks) are kind of lazy - or at least to lazy to do the labor.

Rade,

“Serbia should very politely decline the offer and continue to negotiate in good faith. It's true that Serbia may risk a delay in EU accession, a small price to pay for maintaining territorial integrity.”

Even if it, at this moment, sounds pretty persistent, from the BG politicians, in other hand, also sounds desperately! We all know how much Serbia wants to join EU, but BG politicians have no courage to tell that openly, as they fear they will loose political power (last elections in Serbia shows that clearly – radicals won the majority of votes, even though they did not get the power due to unfair and conditioned coalition between Kostunica and Tadic). So, if they do say openly that they would accept EU in exchange for Kosovas independence, they would be overturned by radicals very soon, and lost a power. Actually, imposing Kosovas independence, would, for them be the best scenario, especially after these postponed negotiations, as they could say “they did all what they could”! And, this will actually be the scenario, what will please, both the BG politicians (keep the power) and the west, who do not like the radicals take control of your country.

To Teni:
Did I understand that you are Orthodox. How do you feel when your countrymen are destroying your hertage, I'm assuming you are albanian. I'm Serbian and do not share or could even care less about the Bosnian moslems. My religion and culture are first and foremost.

To all Greeks in this forum,

'Do not talk about rope in the house of the hangman'

This applies to all of us Greeks, we lost Contantinoupolis, Smirni, North Cyprus and still talk about nationalism.
Our leaders never had the stomach to defend these sacred lands.

Let the Albanians dig their own graves by having territorial demands, we were like that some years ago and had all the international support too, but one day everybody turned their backs on us.

Very soon Albanian Kossovars will be begging to keep the south part of Kossovo.

Ahilleas,

I understand that my comment hurt your feelings, go in Amazon.com and try to look for a book called "The Albanians: An Ethnic history from Prehistoric Times to the Present" By Edwin E. Jacques.This book was publishet about 10 years or so...firs edition was only 3 thousend books,and all greek comunity like you was so angry thet they collect the money and bought the entire books but is good that the publisher was so happy that they puplished more books
and you now all the books you can't buy because you throw money away.Like you I have my opinion about greek origin"Minor Azia" but I give you one thing when Greeks discovered Writing for thet time whas like revolution and thets why history of greek is known among other nations,but inside those stories are albanian stories that are copied thru the time because greks have no story they used albanian storys. I can give you example Homer do you now the word Homer in albanian means "Hoi mjer" (poure you) because hi was blind man hi went town to town and sang the stores and you know what greeks dit they put his songs in writing..
As far as zeus you are right Zeus it is a albanian prehistoric god every so called today greek gods their name means nothing in greek in albanian language has meaning....thats why in albanin community we have a saying for greeks " O YOU TALKING ABOUT THE THIVES

Jovan,
You are Serb so look to find any argument to hold water for you the land your forefathers stealed and rubbed ( you know what I mean). Futhermore, regarding Greece you better stop advocating because you might be their worst advocate having not a valuable argument. Let Achilleas answer instead.
My remarks are based in history. If you want to discuss based on arguments, go ahead, otherwise don't loose your time and my time as well.
As you answered my message based on my remark for Miloscevic as the 'butcher of Balkans', I would presume that this criminal means smth for you.

Dear all,

We have to study history in order to avoid the mistakes of the past and not to fight. But it's a crime to distort history just in favour of various interests. Additionally it's a pitty to learn history by videogames and TV series like "XENA" ...!!! I don't want to offend anybody but reading some comments made me laugh without stop. If an objective researcher search all serious historical books he/she will find out that Greeks (HELLENES) are the only autochthonous nation in the region. The first writings in Greek language were 6.000 - 7.000 years ago. And yes Ancient Greeks were organised in autonomus City-States and they were fighting each other but they knew that they were Greeks as they had the same calture religion and LANGUAGE. And don't forget that HELLENES changed the world history twice; one in 490 - 479 BC when united they defeneded EUROPE against the Persian Empire and one in 1940 AC when they changed the route of WWII fighting an epic battle against Germany.
Best regards to all and I strongly recomend you to study history written in world recognised books.
P.S. I am not Greek ...!!!

It's all serbia, no negotiations whatsoever. Serbs were a majority in Bujanovac at a time, part of the Presovo valley... they were a majority there in 1961, but since albanians in the ex-yu have 10 kids each, they end up being the majority in a matter of time.

It is all Serbia, we must not negotiate anything. Will you negotiate for giving your arm to me if I claim that it is mine? Of course not.

Gent, this "Illirian" story is totally a myth.
No one knows exactly who Illirians were since they never left any monument of civilazation.

Have you ever seen an ancient "Illirian" script?
Tomb? Settlement? Building?
No.
All you can see in todays albania are Ancient Greek monuments.

So, nobody can identify what those Illirians were, and where did they live, etc...
Even if they existed, they surely didnt make much of a difference, so even if todays albanians are indeed descendants of those illirians, it does not mean much.

However, such connection with an unknown old tribe holds no scientific water.

So such claims about Minor Asia are funny. Some say the Greeks came down from the Hungarian steps, some say modern russians descent from balkans. Anyone is entitled to his personal theory, but the reality is what is seen in the monuments.

Thats why you try so hard to erase any Serb cultural presence in the S. Kosovo.
Civilazation is the enemy of brutality.

Hey Ahilleas,do you know how many illegal Albanian immigrants infiltrated in Greece by now?I think the number is pretty big,isn't it?When will your government kick them out and deport them back where they came from?Then you should build the wall towards them like USA are doing right now on Rio Grande.So they can enjoy in their beloved Albania,with beautiful coastline...

Too much shouting today. I'm staying clear of the discussions, except to note that the Wall Street Journal article excerpts B92 published today can be found in its entirety in one of my comments yesterday if anyone is interested interested: http://www.b92.net/eng/news/comments.php?nav_id=43059

One more thing quick and simple: giving up Northern Kosovo is not a "concession" if one does not have any authority over it. It's about as much of a "concession" as Greece "conceding" Constantinople to Turkey.

Personaly,i am quite sure that Albanians are actually comming from Atlantis...and outer space too!I am sure they are oldest living form in Milky Way galaxy:-)

I didn´t take care who it was,...but writing that todays Greeks are descendants of the Albanians was quite a joke. the only joke that is bigger is the one when Albanians claim to be the descendants of the illyrians...
as to "Paul"´s comment:

"I'm sure the Albanians won't be able to resist the tentation to attack the Serbs sooner or later and then byebye independence. "

there is absolutely no reason to give them the opportunity for doing that, since they are displaying their brutality against non-albanians for 8 years now...
so much for their maturity in regard to political responsibility.

as far as I am concerned, they should get a clear answer, in order to wake up from their childish dreams...
there won´t be such a thing like partition, since there is nothing to divide, it´s all serbian land, and the Albanians are only living there..., they can be autonomous citizens of Serbia, not more.
you ought to keep that in mind.

Who cares where you are from? All that matters is the UN resolution 1244 and that is it. You need to wake up and realise that the demographics change all the time. Its UN resolutions that are keeping some form of peace. Independence is not an option anymore. 99 had nothing to do with albanians. At all. It was all about the Serbs. If they wanted to save lives and help the world by preventing ethnic cleansing they should have interveened in Rawanda. There was no crimes against humanity commited by Serbs. Only by albans and their allies at the time.

"Personaly,i am quite sure that Albanians are actually comming from Atlantis...and outer space too!I am sure they are oldest living form in Milky Way galaxy:-)"

Yea I read about that in a paper published by The Serb Academy of Sciences. Artemje was a co-writer.
(Peter, 17. August 2007 18:41)

Ahilleas,
It is your business to be anti-albanian, T don't care about it. It is obvious that Greece was the only European country to manifest approving and backing Miloscevic "the butcher of Balkans". Maybe this is an integral part of your civilisation. Yes in Apolonia there are scripts in old Greek which by the the way is quite different from the nowadays Greek, as there are other distinct ethnographic differences between Greece of today and that of ancient times. Still, it doesn't bother me, as also the fact that the important figures of Greece revival were Albanians such as Bubulina, Boçari, Kolloktroni. There were houndred thousand Albanians (chams) that you expelled in Turkey using the religion as the only criterion, and their properties grabbed by the local population. Greece, did same thing with 50 thousand chams after WWII expelling to Albania and again grabbing their properties. While Albania exactly at the same period gave shelter to thousand of Greek refugies who came in Albania to save their lives during the civil war there. As you are from Ioanina (Dodona at Illyria, Janina in Albanian) you can ask your grandpa and grandma to tell you more from that time.
As far as my "story fiction" about Papulias you can ask the current President. I can tell you that if you go in Arta, Preveza, Pargos you can still hear the Albanian spoken by the inhabitants there.
Anyhow, what is more important now is that two our countries have decided to resolve the problem of property restituition.

"It is obvious that Greece was the only European country to manifest approving and backing Miloscevic "the butcher of Balkans". Maybe this is an integral part of your civilisation."
written by Shqiptar as a response to Ahilleas

Shqiptar,

the Greeks are known for their old civilizational achievements, and quite a lot of poeple in the whole world do in fact have much respect for those achievments!
instead of that, Albanians are not really known for any cultural achievements...
as I have posted it a few days ago... one third of all inmates in Switzerlands prisons is of albanian ethnicity!
think it over, before you write about brutality.
yeah, that´s it...
keep that in mind when you try to make silly remarks about greek civilization in the future.

There are many ethnic groups that would like independence but cannot have it. For instance the Kurds form overwhelming, if not total majorities in Turkey, Iraq and Iran. Despite an oppressed existance, INTERNATIONAL LAW guarantees that their host countries will maintain SOVEREIGNTY over their land.

Albanians, you have lived a much more privileged life in KiM compared to your previous host country of Albania. Why do you think that the world owes you independence?

The sooner you realize that KiM is SOVEREIGN Serbian land,guaranteed under international law, the sooner that all ethnic groups will prosper in the province.

Detroit Serb,
Just admit you are an albanian incognito. Considering that Ashtaari plan was destroyed because the world realizes that kosovo is sovereign serbian land, and they cannot change a thing without their approval, you would have us believe that a true serb on the internet would just cut away not only kosovo but presevo which their own army controls? haha detroit "serb," this is called internet trolling. Why don't you propose that Nato has access to serbia proper as well like they wanted under Rambouillet?

wow every 2 bit irelevant politician coming in to give their 2 cents worth. K Albanians have been promised the world,they might just end up with an atlas.

BNO,

Bravo Bravo I solute you with one applaud, that’s good that you now about Greek mythology, and that mythology belong to Greeks only 000.12%...they are Hellene that is fact but the stories that are in writing is not Hellene…Today’s Greeks are not pure Greek…When Greeks migrated into Balkans, they borrowed many stories and culture and religious, from people that were already there, and this people were Albanians, SORRY do more research, HUMANS COPY ONE ANOTHER IS ARE WAY OF SURVIVING….

Hi there, very intresting topic but much of this exitment is made by the people's comments as well.
I as an outsider see a very clear anti-albanian side were Serbs and Greeks join their ideas on partitioning the Albanian lands and eliminating the threat...but on the other hand the power stands on peoples hands as people control the government and the stability of the region or if we want the opposite then let's go back to 1930 dictatorships and very soon after start another cold war.
In my opinion going back is not a solution for both sides as for us outsiders but the best and the right solution would be to make a Balkan traty were all borders could be on the table and an imposed solution be made as compromis can't be reached...Let's form National Independent States in that region as no other solution will be at no good for none of the sides...
Lets have a Croatia were all the Croats live, and A Bosnia were all Bosnians live, A serbia were all Serbs live, Albania were all Albanians live, Macedonia were all Macedonians live, Bulgaria were all Bulgarisn live, Greece were all the Greeks live and Turkey were all the Turks live...
Sounds Impossible !!!
It is possible but very unwanted by the Serbs and then Greeks as they will loose integrity to a chunk amount of lands, so for a better solution for my Serbs is to accept an Independent Kosovo as soon as posible and continue on living as a good neighbour if they like to keep the Valley, Sandjak and Vojvodina under their national integrity otherwise I see many partitions comming soon within Serbia itself...
Thanks for Reading.

BNO -
you are totaly wrong!
you have only got the principle right, though your knowledge of history is based on unreasoned untrue facts which were placed there to distort reality!
you talk about greeks as if you are talking about yourself.

Dear all

I will give u some links to learn some things about Greece.

Best regards

http://www.fhw.gr/chronos/gr/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Greece

Dear BNO,
Thank you vey much for the link. So touchy for a non - Greek as you pretending to be to be at the same time so Greek-oriented as yourself.
But alas, what I have not found in any Greek history book is the explanation why there we have a quite different language of modern Greece from the acient Greece. When it happened, under which circumstances. Furthermore, why, when the ethnographic differences ocurred. And are the above mentined differences quantitively and qualitatively enough to let us conclude that we are not speaking for the same nation. I'm not waiting for any answer from you, BNO, so please don't bother yourself, since the Greeks find themselves puzzled.
But do you see how easy is to overlap national issues in the Balkans. In fact we are supposed to be here and discuss for the possibility of exchange of territories.
I hope this wouldn't affect you.

Now here it is the only way to accomodate the Balkan troubles: Albania takes Kosova without Leposavic and Zvecan but with Bujanovc and Presheva. Substantial autonomy is given for the 100.000 serbs remaining inside the new Albania, and also substantial autonomy is given for the albanian regions of Medvedja, Nis, Vranja and Prokupla in the southern Serbia.
Serbia takes Republika Serbska. Bosnia takes Sandjak. Albania takes western FYROM except for Skopje (which later will be declared an principate such as San Marino. Bulgaria takes Eastern FYROM and Greece takes the southern slice. Albania and Montenegro sign an agreement not to change borders and an albanian minority remains in the cities of Ulqin, Plava, Gucia, Hoti, Gruda, Tivari and Podgorica. Also more rights are provided to the ethnically mixed village of Vraka close to Shkodra in northern Albania where 2123 montenegrins are the 30% of the whole population of the village. In the south direction, Albania takes Epirus and Thesprotia regions which have been occupied by Greece since 1913. Albania also takes its cities of Kosturi and Follorina in northern greece. Substantial autonomy is given to the 6 villages of greek majority in southern Albania. Also substantial autonomy is given to the Attiki region albanian locations such as Plaka, Spata, Luca, the islands of Salamina, Hydra, Specia and the cities of Parga, Arta, Preveza, Filati, Paramithia, Margariti (Margëlliçi), Meçova and Janina.
Do you see now Ahilleas who looses with this game? So better stay there where you are, enjoy what already have and stay quiet not being involved to a problem we albanians have with serbs and not with you.

Shqiptar,

I have gratuated from the Department of Classics & Ancient History of Exeter University. So my friend allow me to have a litlle bit more knowledge than you about ancient history !!! But you know I keep no hard feelings for your arogant way of thinking.
About the language matter: do u think that modern English or French are the same with the ancient versions? The language is a living organism that according to scientists is under continuous transformation and developement. It happens to speak English, Greek (modern and ancient) and my native language and I can assure you that there are not so great differences between modern and ancient Greek language. 90% of the modern greek words have ancient origin and roots. And my friend don't forget that 40% or even more of the English language is "stollen" by the Greek language. And off course you can ask some medical doctors, physicists, mathematicians, biologists, genetists, astrophysicists which is the language of science ...

Best regards

Dear BNO,
First of all it is a pleasure to discussed with an well educated person as yourself. This means that arguments and not arrogance (what you accused me).
In fact I was addressing to a person that declared himself non-Greek but without showing his nationality (it is a personal matter to be proud or ashamed by oneself nationality). You are declaring "Greeks (HELLENES) are the only autochthonous nation in the region." Honestly, are you really convinced of this statement? Simply, it is a white lie that holds no water. Needlesss to say, that the presence of the Ilyrians is proved to be as old of the Greeks in the region. On the matter, as you are a Greek lover you can consult the ancient Greek sources as Thycidites and Herodotis.
Strange as you were a student of ancient history to miss these references. Furthermore the Illyricum continuity was largely mentioned at the Roman sources as Plinius and new Plinius, to mention just a few.
But what I was refer to was the missing link between ancient and modern Greeks, for which I didn't have any answer yet.
Anyhow, here we deviated from the forum discussion which is the future of Kosova.

First of all the corect spelling is Herodotus and Thoukidides. Secondly Illyrians: Library of Congress article on the ancient Albanians, a name which derives from the name of an Illyrian tribe called the Arber, or Arbereshë, and later Albanoi, that lived near Durrës. The Illyrians were Indo-European tribesmen who appeared in the western part of the Balkan Peninsula about 1000 B.C.
So Illyrians apeared in 1000 B.C. while first evidences of the Greek civilization dated 5000 B.C. or even earlier ... So my friend I rest my case ... And do not forget the theory that Illyrians might were a Greek tribe ... Don't be furious if this theory is right you should be proud ...