Croatian WW2 death camp Jasenovac was "worse than Auschwitz"
The canonization of Croatian Catholic Cardinal <a href="https://www.b92.net/eng/news/region.php?yyyy=2016&mm=07&dd=22&nav_id=98694" class="text-link" target= "_blank">Alojzije Stepinac</a> would be itself a crime, says Israeli Holocaust expert, Professor Gideon Greif.
Why does it matter whom was in charge, when we can't even get a close estimate of murdered? This is why your history is irrelevant in the 40's 20's and 90's. You were building cro nation in the 40s then why the f was it not a recognize country until 2014
Based on November 1943. intelligence report of the 114. Hunting Division to the Chief of Staff of 15th Mountain Army Corps. of Wehrmacht regarding Chetnik cooperation, Djujic is described as a "member of Ljotic movement". British intelligence sources confirm his siding. According to Zb. NOR, VI/19, p.842., describing battles in Slovenia, that time part of Adriatische Küstenland, no. 170, order no.1707/45 issued by Ia department of the office of the Commandant of the SS and Police in Adriatische Küstenland, Odilo Globocnik, on March 19, 1945., Subject: Action of Chetnik Dinara Division units, the Stabskompanie (120 men) of the SS in Trieste under the command of Ernst Lerch is to be assigned under the command of the Commandant of the SS and Police in Gorizia, Karl Taus. The Stabskompanie's task is to integrate among the brigades of Dinara Division and through personal assistance to the commanding officers of the brigades simplify the order transmission on the field. Second task is to motivate the activities of the Chetnik brigades and in mutual efforts perform reconnaissance tasks in whole Vipava valley and deeper to the east, while Ernst Lerch maintains close coordination with vo. Djujic. This is only a fragment of entire activities in the operation which is a common subject of works of history students of University in Ljubljana and elsewhere.
@ rancho rosa: Vojvoda Djujic or the Dinarska Division was never incorporated into or with the Nazis. That's a FUCKEN LIE, no matter who the source is.
Nope, he received it in February this year. Google it. Nikolic is Šešelj's best man, and listen what he says how they founded their movement: https://youtu.be/s9ehEyZhHJs?t=39
Transcription: "I do not know if it is known to you, the only living Serbian Chetnik Warlord Momcilo Djujic from WW2, that lived in America, has declared me for a Serbian Chetnik Warlord in 1989., much prior to the war. To save this tradition, because if he had died prior to my declaration, that tradition would not have continuity. Thank to his act, this continuity has been preserved. Then I have declared around 19 or 20 other warlords." One of those warlords was his best man Nikolic who became the state president.
Momcilo Djujic was directly subordinated to Odilo Globocnik and incorporated his division within Karl Taus area or responsibility, he also formed a battlegroup with Enrst Lerch during the operation Frühlingsanfang in Operationszone Adriatisches Küstenland where he received a company of 120 elite SS from Trieste headquarters. Reinhard Kopps was in his staff for more than a year. ...
(Matt, 27 July 2017 11:46)
And Zuroff receives an award from this guy's affiliate Nikolic earlier this year.
Thompson, the allegations are not baseless but fact. Thousands of Nazis and Ustasa were smuggled out of Europe through the Vatican to Argentina and other South American countries, Australia, Canada and the U.S. by Allen Dulles, the first director of the C.I.A. IT WAS KNOWN AS RATLINES.
Serbia wad militarily occupied by the German Army
(Do Not Resuscitate, 31 July 2017 20:35)
Exactly. I'm glad you finally realised that Serbia suffered the German Army military occupation as the rest of Yugoslavia.
(icj1, 1 August 2017 02:30)
Parts of Serbia were occupied by the German Military, whereas some other parts of Serbia and all of current day Republika Srpska were occupied by the Nezavisna (i.e. Independent) NDH. icj1 and other Ustasha apologists should stop ignoring those pesky and stubborn facts
(Amnesty Yugoslavia, 1 August 2017 12:14)
Well, our dear friend "Do Not Resuscitate" wrote that "Serbia wad militarily occupied by the German Army". Feel free to sort your "facts" out with him/her lol
Occupation summary was around 40 German Intelligence centres in Zagreb (HSSPF was running under different name) and a smaller count in around 124 cities over the territory, approx. 300 - 350 000 German soldiers, Italian army count prior to capitulation was approx. 150 - 200 000 soldiers in their zone, excluding other armies, all confiscating resources to Croatian and Bosnian population burdening already deteriorated life conditions, at the same time conscripting them into controlled puppet army, Ustashis were running local administration and camps under occupational surveillance. If those shelters were their invention, this would cause a logical problem since it would imply humanitarian intention on their side, which was not the case. What belongs to them is a humanitarian problem they caused in running those shelters they allowed to be established due to political pressures created from humanitarian organizations and individuals that initiated housings of children.
...but Ustashi administration created a problem when they banned further colonization...
(Matt, 1 August 2017 08:27)
---
Matt,
Your narratives are apparently inconsistent. Today you write the NDH and Ustashi were independent administrators and executed powers to ban colonization. It's certainly not the "puppet" state that icj1 and the corrupt US military tribunal falsely claim.
Thank you for your inconsistencies and providing this reference.
Serbia suffered the German Army military occupation as the rest of Yugoslavia.
. (icj1, 1 August 2017 02:30)
---
icj1, the CB of B92, once again ignores those "stubborn facts".
Parts of Serbia were occupied by the German Military, whereas some other parts of Serbia and all of current day Republika Srpska were occupied by the Nezavisna (i.e. Independent) NDH. icj1 and other Ustasha apologists should stop ignoring those pesky and stubborn facts.
Idiocy, ignorance and intolerance continue to define icj1.
@Peggy
If you are refering to Mr. Gideon's reference in this article in terms of an extermination subcamp for children, then those indications may be slightly problematic. Children brought from desolated areas into regular camps were exclusively on insistance of Mrs. D. Budisavljevic and Red Cross relocated to improvised shelters at cities Sisak and Jastrebarsko near Zagreb where were runned under administration of social affairs since they would almost certainly die in regular camps. Red Cross sent about a dozen nuns and medical personell to assist in their relocation, which was a result of what is known as Mrs. Budisavljevic Action for extraction of children from concentration camps. At each city local families were taking those children as refugees to their homes, which was called "colonization", but Ustashi administration created a problem when they banned further colonization, so large number of children were left without proper care thus causing humanitarian disaster, especially at city of Sisak. After the Archbishop intervened to lift the ban, colonization continued. Budisavljevic, Caritas and monsignor Paul Jesih from the Archdiocese organized the colonization for about 5-6 000 children to the end of 1942., mostly through local churches and their organizations. In other words these were not extermination camps as those from which they were brought, as Gideon might allude in the article for reasons known to him only.
Absolutely, similarly to the one indisputable fact that the willful killings of Jews, Serbs, Roma and other ethnicities in Serbia were predominantly perpetrated by the Nedic government and German Nazis.
(icj1, 28 July 2017 16:45)
Icj1's motto, 'A lie with each breath'.
Serbia wad militarily occupied by the German Army, unlike the NDH who did all on their lonesome. Nedic's authority barely reached beyond the buildings the the Germans let him occupy.
I can't wait for icj1's forthcoming revisionism out the Holocaust, written with Auschwitz Azir. You are both numpties.
...than (sic) the Nedic Влада народног спаса proclaimed itself as the "salvation" of the Serbs.... (icj1, 30 July 2017 22:20)
----
icj1, the CB of B92, continually wishes to emphasize their many failures. The Nedic government never proclaimed themselves as the "salvation of the Serbs". Those words only exist in the warped mind of icj1. Perhaps our resident bigot should learn the actual meaning of the word "народног".
Idiocy, ignorance and intolerance continue to define icj1.
Show me one picture of a catholic priest blessing weapons and I show you 100 pictures of serb/russian/greek orthodox priests blessing weapons
=================
Gjon, I would suggest you don't play poker. If you want to raise stakes be careful because there was a concentration camp just for children run by Catholic nuns in Croatia. The only concentration camp just for children ever.
You can fold your cards now.
Please do continue and blindly ignore the corrupt US military, and laughably reference their unproven statements
(Amnesty Yugoslavia, 29 July 2017 17:05)
Well, it was the US military which stated that the Nazis had ordered the shooting of one hundred prisoners or hostages in Serbia for each killed German soldier. Only a Serb hater like you would write that's an "unproven" statement!
The Pavelic Nezavisna Država Hrvatska government proclaimed themselves "Independent" and not a "puppet".
(Amnesty Yugoslavia, 30 July 2017 18:52)
If your criteria is that a government should be judged by what it calls itself, than the Nedic Влада народног спаса proclaimed itself as the "salvation" of the Serbs and not a "puppet".
It looks like icj1 is stepping up to the plate as B92's chief troll since Auschwitz Azir had his disgusting comments removed by b92 mods. He consistently winds up other commenters because he enjoys it, so he's a nasty piece of work and it's proud of it too.
... similarly to the Pavelic puppet government, joined the Nazis to kill Jews, Serbs, Roma and other ethnicities.
(icj1, 29 July 2017 21:38)
----
icj1, the CB of B92, ignores facts and failed basic language skills. The Pavelic Nezavisna Država Hrvatska government proclaimed themselves "Independent" and not a "puppet". Only in the warped mind of icj1 and corrupt US military tribunals is the word "nezavisna" understood as "puppet". Laughable.
Disgusting. All those poor people who died...I can't imagine...but by looking at his crooked face I can catch a glimpse of all the sorrow, pain and fear this sadist caused.
Amnesty Yugoslavia and icj1 are the same person. No one can be as deliberately stupid as icj1. Amnesty has set-up this continual exchange with a straw-man, to mock the Croats.
(Ned, 29 July 2017 11:08)
---
Ned, although icj1 writes under many monikers, I am not icj1.
First and foremost, I am indeed a human person, which obviously distinguishes me from icj1.
icj1 is the CB of B92 who is a self-diagnosed nihilist that literally celebrates crimes against religious institutions. icj1 also favors Mengele's idiotic (un)scientific concepts of medical diagnoses linked to ethnicity. In contrast to icj1, I admire and defend the multi-ethnic south Slav people called Yugoslavs. Perhaps the only semblance of accuracy in your remark is the association of stupidity and icj1.
Thanks for your knowledge on this subject. It is very informative.
You have just raised the quality of discussions on this web site. I look forward to reading more of your well thoughtout comments which show a degree of knowledge that is truely lacking on this site.
The killing of Jews, Serbs, Roma and other ethnicities across Yugoslavia was predominantly perpetrated by the Croat Ustasha.
(Amnesty Yugoslavia, 28 July 2017 18:53)
and by the Nedic puppet government, which, similarly to the Pavelic puppet government, joined the Nazis to kill Jews, Serbs, Roma and other ethnicities.
...that Serb Orthodox Church with ultranationalists ...
(Matt, 29 July 2017 08:34)
---
No need to display your bias with broad strokes and derogatory remarks about an entire religion. Please do continue and blindly ignore the corrupt US military, and laughably reference their unproven statements about the NDH. What most serious historians do acknowledge is that many of the 20th and 21st centuries untried and unpunished war crimes, such as the genocide in Vietnam, were perpetrated by the US military.
If you wish to continue as yet another Ustasha apologist, then please avoid invoking a reference to one if the histories greatest criminal enterprises.
@ Matt:
Serious consideration should indeed be given to the distinction between the Nuremberg IMT and the showcase trials run by US military tribunals where whitewashing of international war crimes was, and still is, common place.
Amnesty Yugoslavia and icj1 are the same person. No one can be as deliberately stupid as icj1. Amnesty has set-up this continual exchange with a straw-man, to mock the Croats.
@Tony (a Brit currently working in Berlin)
If Stepinac was a person that Serb Orthodox Church with ultranationalists claims to be, then Amiel Shomrony would not two times submitted a request to Yad Vashem to recognize him as a Righteous Among the Nations. Amiel Shomrony was chief rabbi Shalom Freiberger's secretary during the occupation of Zagreb. Branko Lustig who produced the Schindlers list also shares the same conviction. Mr. Greif resolute accusation is over-exaggerated, maybe even misinformed.
They are UNWCC recommended and relevant exemplary cases for application and interpretation of international law in relevant issues, particularly List case in this volume. This includes judgment remarks and other notes, and no one serious will exclude them from historiographical research and determining the general event framework. Remark about puppet state status is relevant for getting insight in general situation development, that was ranted as "revisionist". My first comment was about Mr. Greif's inappropriate remarks that contrary to that targeted entire ethnic population while giving support to Serb Orthodox Church and their political affiliates in case in front of Vatican Commision, at the same time ignoring that they canonized notorious antisemite and fascist episcope, together with a "priest" Vukoyichich (Vukojičić) from Schwarze Troikas that even has a verdict of being guilty of murder of ten persons in Montenegro, and Shiljak, if I haven't mistranslated his affiliation (not my field of interest), also being under accusation of murder, regardlessly how this is embarrasing to himself and might deteriorate reputation of instituion that he currently represents and what it tries to represent. I wonder how long will Israel authorities continue to swallow what they are serving them.
Absolutely, similarly to the one indisputable fact that the willful killings of Jews, Serbs, Roma and other ethnicities in Serbia were predominantly perpetrated by the Nedic government and German Nazis. (icj1, 28 July 2017 16:45)
---
Once again, those "stubborn facts" elude icj1, the CB of B92. Parts of current day Serbia and the entire region of today's Republika Srpska were occupied by the murderous Croat NDH, and not the "Nedic government". The killing of Jews, Serbs, Roma and other ethnicities across Yugoslavia was predominantly perpetrated by the Croat Ustasha.
Law Reports of Trials of War Criminals by The UN War Crimes Commision, volume VIII, 1949., no. 47 Trial of Wilhelm List and others, section A, subsection 3. Judgement, number xii under title "The Legal Status of the "Croatian Government"", p.72 - 74.
(Matt, 28 July 2017 16:40)
----
Yes, the UN Law Reports from 1949 also emphasize that the trial was not conducted by the Nuremberg International Military Tribunal, but in contrast was uni-national US military court. Thank you for providing additional reference to this fact, stubbornly ignored by others.
The one indisputable fact is that the willful killings of Jews, Serbs, Roma and other ethnicities were predominantly perpetrated by the Croat Ustasha and German Nazis.
(Amnesty Yugoslavia, 28 July 2017 16:04)
Absolutely, similarly to the one indisputable fact that the willful killings of Jews, Serbs, Roma and other ethnicities in Serbia were predominantly perpetrated by the Nedic government and German Nazis.
What's wrong Dwight? Still can't find anything in the archives to support your false allegations? Just as I stated, you're a liar and a coward. Now you're aligning yourself with icj1, the biggest Ustasha sympathizer and historical revisionist on this site. You're really scrapping the bottom of the barrel. You know what they say, 'you are the company you keep.' icj1 has been called out as liar, fraud and historical revisionist. When asked to defend herself, she runs away to another thread to continue her Serb-bashing. You're both pathetic...but entertaining.
Now icj1 is saying that you are picking on the Serbs .... is it because they wouldn't kill the Jews?
(Dwight, 28 July 2017 14:36)
---
icj1, the CB of B92, has demonstrated themself as an Ustasha apologist. Idiotic inferences from the warped mind of icj1 are incomprehensible to sane people. The one indisputable fact is that the willful killings of Jews, Serbs, Roma and other ethnicities were predominantly perpetrated by the Croat Ustasha and German Nazis.
@Amnesty
Law Reports of Trials of War Criminals by The UN War Crimes Commision, volume VIII, 1949., no. 47 Trial of Wilhelm List and others, section A, subsection 3. Judgement, number xii under title "The Legal Status of the "Croatian Government"", p.72 - 74.
Well, according to the Nuremberg Trials, it was proven beyond any reasonable doubt that Croatia was also occupied by the Nazis, just like Serbia. Sorry for shattering your dreams, dear, but facts are really stubborn...
(icj1, 28 July 2017 02:55)
---
A few facts for icj1, the CB of B92. The trial of The United States of America v. Wilhelm List, et al. was held from 8 July 1947 until 19 February 1948 and was the seventh of US run showcases. It did take place in US occupied Nuremberg, but it was a US military court and not the more recognized International Military Tribunal. No part of the trial or evidence includes any statements or comparisons of the NDH to Serbia. The "just like Serbia" exists only in the warped mind of icj1. Equating the murderous NDH as "just like Serbia" is typical daily drivel from our Ustasha apologist icj1. icj1 is the same commentator who in the past has celebrated crimes against religious institutions, and displayed an affection for debunked Mengele- based medicine. Idiocy, Ignorance and intolerance continue to define icj1.....just like his/her NDH criminal heroes.
(njegos, 28 July 2017 05:43)
What's wrong njegos, you cannot find any comments to support your accusation that I am a Ustashe revisionist, so you continue to talk about Jews, you are obsessed with them, I think I have hit a nerve?
Now icj1 is saying that you are picking on the Serbs .... is it because they wouldn't kill the Jews?
Quite amazing how Albanians are trying to say Serbians sided with NAZI Germany. Every side had collaborators, the British Queen and her family had links to the NAZIs, Prominent American business men, politicians and banks had collaborated with the NAZIs and Serbia under occupation had links also but all in all, we fought against them.
I know of not one Serb today who supports NAZIs, and we are proud to be part of its defeat. However, Albanians, Croatians and many others see that defeat as a loss, not a victory like Serbs and Russians, who celebrate each year.
Chetniks march on ANZAC day in Australia, as part of the Allied forces who defeated fascism. Croats are nowhere to be seen, neither are Albanians.
What's wrong Dwight, can't you find all of those comments of mine that referenced my negative comments about Jews? I'm still waiting. Where are they? You are a liar and a coward. And please don't repost my comments as if they were your own as you did previously. Try thinking for yourself for a change.
Those population numbers are current, obviously the Croatian populations in South America grew since 1945. What do you think? The Croatians loved South America so much they went on holidays!
(Jugoslavija, 27 July 2017 18:03)
Totally baseless allegations. Please provide evidence from unbiased sources.
The difference is that between 1941-1945, Serbia was occupied and Croatia was liberated.
(Ari Gold, 26 July 2017 22:40)
Well, according to the Nuremberg Trials, it was proven beyond any reasonable doubt that Croatia was also occupied by the Nazis, just like Serbia. Sorry for shattering your dreams, dear, but facts are really stubborn...
Maybe you believe your own historians (Dr. Jovan Marjanovic & Mihail Stanisic) and your own archives:
(Gjon Marku, 27 July 2017 20:34)
No, I believe conventional historians throughout academia as well as common logic of the capabilities of an invading power controlling conquered territory populated by communities that by and large were systematically targeted by Germans, Croats, Hungarians, Bulgarians, and Albanians. I also have the easily accessible information on Allies looking at Yugoslavia, and Serbia in particular, as "Occupied Territory" instead of "Axis Allied".
Finding one example of a concentration camp in southern Belgrade, which was largely the only city/town where Nedic had some authority hardly makes the case that Serbs were collaborators; especially since another camp much closer to central Belgrade on the other side of the Sava in NDH-controlled territory housed Serb prisoners.
But good for you still trying to desperately beat this dead horse in some attempt at making a point I've already lost interest in entertaining you on.
Show me one picture of a catholic priest blessing weapons and I show you 100 pictures of serb/russian/greek orthodox priests blessing weapons. Dude, the serb/russian/greek orthodox priests are phisically and mentaly stuck in the stoneage. Primitive mysticists with a flair for Jesus.
@njegos
You made a completely unsubsantiated comment about me being a "Ustasha revisionist" and are now outraged that someone invents stories about you.
Once you provide a link to my Ustasha revisionist comments, I will provide a link to your comments where you said that you were delighted that so few Jews are left in Serbia.
gjon
the only real cetniks were the ones controlled by mihajlovic. all others may have called themselves cetniks, but had nothing to do with the real command of draza. nice try though. you can actually find pictures of albanians and other muslims collaborating with nazis. albania did 0 to liberate europe, they have always been a cancer, like a parasite on the balkans
(ian, 27 July 2017 18:52)
Sure. If you actually belive what you just wrote, despite the massive amount of evidence ( photos, documents etc.), then you are a special kind of stupid my little chetnik
Check Yad Vashem what they say about the chetniks.
If you're going to make references to Serbia being "Judenfrei" please have the intellectual decency to finish the analysis by connecting the deed and the statements to the right groups.
(Balkan Anthropologist, 27 July 2017 16:03)
Maybe you believe your own historians (Dr. Jovan Marjanovic & Mihail Stanisic) and your own archives:
The long concealed Historical Archives in Belgrade reveal that Banjica, a concentration camp located in Belgrade, was primarily staffed by Serbs. Funding for the conversion of the former barracks of the Serbian 18th infantry division to a concentration, came from the municipal budget of Belgrade. The camp was divided into German and Serbian sections. From Banjica there survive death lists written entirely in Serbian in the Cyrillic alphabet. At least 23,697 victims passed through the Serbian section of this camp. Many were Jews, including at least 798 children, of whom at least 120 were shot by Serbian guards.
gjon
the only real cetniks were the ones controlled by mihajlovic. all others may have called themselves cetniks, but had nothing to do with the real command of draza. nice try though. you can actually find pictures of albanians and other muslims collaborating with nazis. albania did 0 to liberate europe, they have always been a cancer, like a parasite on the balkans
(Half of mill. ustashis? Really? They couldn't even find more than cca 10 000 volunteers up to 1942, most ranks were filled by conscription and administrative reordering when they reached little less than 30 000 up to 1943.,
(Matt, 27 July 2017 11:46)
Those population numbers are current, obviously the Croatian populations in South America grew since 1945. What do you think? The Croatians loved South America so much they went on holidays!
It seems your are clueless when jt comes to world affairs. Of course the globalist government of Germany will admit to the Holocaust. That does not mean that it isn't a made up story.
Serbia, on the other hand, unlike Nazis, committed REAL genocide. Just like the Turks did.
@Mark.W
you say "Is there a standard blessing in the Serbian Orthodox Church you give before going out to commit genocide? Or are all the Orthodox blessings the same?", as if there is something sinister and conspiratorial behind this.
first off, isolating orthodox church, or further isolating serbian orthodox church shows your predjudice like a lighthouse shining into a dark sea. so, the block of salt one must take with your comment is noted.
you fail to recognize, or simply choose to ignore the fact that most militaries have some form of spiritual holy person. it is their responsibility to bless their soldiers, to give them a spiritual hope before and after missions. serbia is not the only one. nor are orthodox religions the only ones.
as a matter of fact the catholic church has set of specific "in time of war" prayers.
http://www.catholictradition.org/war-time2.htm
the former english colony nations have chaplains in their ranks.
so wonder no longer. all militaries have their prayers before they send their ranks to kill others. call it what you like, but its all death, at the end their dead by "righteous" or "genocidal" means. i don't think those who die care much how it was done, in every case they were murdered.
From dwight: "Please show just one instance where I am a Ustasha revisionist, just one! You can't because I never said any such thing. You either have me confused with somebody else, or you're just a plain liar. Might I suggest you get your facts straight before hurling unsubstantiated allegations against others you don't agree with. I'll accept your apology anytime, however, I believe your inflated ego will prevent you from doing what's right."
You know what they say, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. Therefore, since you reposted, almost word for word, my comments to you, I'll take that as a compliment. Next time though, try coming up with your own thoughts, as hard as that may be for you. And back to your original comments to me, please show me where I said anything negative toward Jews. Please just one!
To Matt the revisionist: Here are accounts of those killed from German Generals:400,000 Serbs (Alexander Löhr); 350,000 Serbs (Lothar Rendulic); around 300,000 (Edmund Glaise von Horstenau); in 1943; "600–700,000 until March 1944" (Ernst Fick); 700,000 (Massenbach). Hermann Neubacher calculates:
The recipe, received by the Ustaše leader and Poglavnik, the president of the Independent State of Croatia, Ante Pavelić, resembled genocidal intentions from some of the bloodiest religious wars: "A third must become Catholic, a third must leave the country, and a third must die!" This last point of the Ustaše program was accomplished. When prominent Ustaše leaders claimed that they slaughtered a million Serbs (including babies, children, women and old men), that is, in my opinion, a boastful exaggeration. On the basis of the reports submitted to me, I believe that the number of defenseless victims slaughtered to be three quarters of a million.[101]
Italian generals reported similar figures to their commanders.[102] The Vatican's sources also speak of similar figures, that is, for an example, of 350,000 ethnic-Serbs slaughtered by the end of 1942 (Eugene Tisserant).[103]
The Germans, as we know, are known for their detail and record keeping.
Historian Christopher Browning stated on the subject of Holocaust and Serbian:
“ Serbia was the only country outside Poland and the Soviet Union where all Jewish victims were killed on the spot without deportation, and was the first country after Estonia to be declared "Judenfrei", a term used by the Nazis during the Holocaust to denote an area free of all Jews.
(Gjon Marku, 26 July 2017 23:38)
Yes, carried out in large part by the Germans. You seem to keep forgetting this crucial piece of information that keeps your opinions from becoming a valid argument. What support came from the Nedic quisling government was statistically too small to undertake the crimes you seem to attribute to Belgrade.
Harald Turner and Emanuel Schafer don't sound like a Serbian name.
If you're going to make references to Serbia being "Judenfrei" please have the intellectual decency to finish the analysis by connecting the deed and the statements to the right groups.
Todays war criminals have video camera's and and record themselves getting blessed by a Serbian Orthodox priest before going to murder people.
(Mark.W, 27 July 2017 04:08)
I think it's adorable you believe the early to mid 1990s during war time constitutes "today".
Pretty crazy when you begin to understand just how warped the version of history we are taught is.
(Bob, 27 July 2017 08:43)
--
Now Bob has made his historical position clear.
Apparently the massacre of a few thousand Bosnian Muslim soldiers after evacuating women, children and the elderly is genocide.
And the gassing of a few million Jews, women, children and the elderly by the NAZIs is not genocide, it is a misunderstanding and caused by the allies cutting supply lines.
Yep, this is the kind of anti-Serbian mentality we are dealing with. Even the Germans themselves admit to genocide.
From Spotter: "njegos,
I have not commented before, however I have been following the comments on B92 for several years. On several occasions I have read many of your vicious remarks. One need only go to the archives to read what you spew in order to determine what kind of person you are. You should be ashamed of yourself for tainting the reputation of decent Serbs."
Please provide some examples Spotter. Go to the archives that you mention. My comments, more than anything, defend Serbs against historical revisionists and are, for the most part, in response to distorted information spewed from Croat and Albanian apologists who can't come to grips with their own history. Additionally, most of what I present are researchable facts from reliable sources. My guess is that you are not a Serb. Please be more specific about what I've said that bothers you. I'd love to have a discussion with you.
They couldn't even find more than cca 10 000 volunteers up to 1942, most ranks were filled by conscription and administrative reordering when they reached little less than 30 000 up to 1943., the rest are Homeland who were old monarchial army and conscripted population that was loyal to old representatives with very small combat value for occupational force, they were also a base for partisan ranks recruitment).
(Matt, 27 July 2017 11:46)
Yes we all know that according to the Croats it was the Serbs that sided with the Germans. However, history paints a different picture. Too bad you cant erase that, fascists bastards.
The idea and the word of holocaust (catastrophy) both appeared 9 years after WW2 in the USA in 1954. At Nurenberg Tribunal the Jewish tragedy wasn't considered something extraordinary compared to the tragedies of th Russians, Byelorussians, Ukrainians, Poles, Roma ect. But Rothschilds could not finance Israel all the time so they put additional 1 Trln DM contribution on Germany. ww1 AND WW2 had one more dimention - those were also WARS OF THE ROCKELFELLERS AGAINST THE ROTHSCHIELS.
USSR and Russia have never admitted holocaust and nobody told us a word about it because all the documents are still in Moscow. That's why you will never find any statistics about holocaust in any state. 6 000 000 victims figures were offered by Stern Magazine in 1955. Other figures discussed were from 1 to 10 mln that was total absurd. Jasenovac and Auschwitz cannot be compared because Auschwitz was a city that included 13 camps like Jasenovac where 90% of prisoners were Slavs. Everything is well documented and all the papers are here in Moscow region. Hitler did not mean to eliminate the Jews but tried to export them everywhere he could.
@jugoslavia
Momcilo Djujic was directly subordinated to Odilo Globocnik and incorporated his division within Karl Taus area or responsibility, he also formed a battlegroup with Enrst Lerch during the operation Frühlingsanfang in Operationszone Adriatisches Küstenland where he received a company of 120 elite SS from Trieste headquarters. Reinhard Kopps was in his staff for more than a year. (Half of mill. ustashis? Really? They couldn't even find more than cca 10 000 volunteers up to 1942, most ranks were filled by conscription and administrative reordering when they reached little less than 30 000 up to 1943., the rest are Homeland who were old monarchial army and conscripted population that was loyal to old representatives with very small combat value for occupational force, they were also a base for partisan ranks recruitment).
@njegos
On territory of old Yugoslavia lived about a half of million Volksdeutchers, around 150 to 200 000 on territory of what is modern day Croatia, mostly in northern parts. German divisions with Croatian marks were formed from their population. It is not clear who showed open sympathy for German army, and some of them had both Croatian and German identity affiliation. Majority was indifferent. According to US Military Tribunal trial on List and others, around 5% showed support to representatives of the puppet state. German generals were reporting even before dissolution of Soviet-Germany treaty that the occupation was not accepted in majority of the occupied territory. Franjo Tudjman was Tito's partisan and personally fought Nazi's, regardless of whether someone likes him or not. Dinko Sakic was arrested and prosecuted.
@miles
This is a mixture of hooligan subculture, confusion created by political rantings from all sides followed by media exagerations and even false reportings, low knowledge of not so simple history leading to non-differentiation of what represents what to whom, noting that slogans are rather simple and various subjective meanings can be imposed on them, bringing more to confusion. You could probably find more reasons, but not fascism, most hardly know anything about it.
@Peggy
This "version" of history is ordinary historiography that you could find in any even old Yugoslavian books. First time heard that Cardinal is "locked up" or similar conspiratorial nonsense. One can have any impression on him as he like, but he doesnt have anything to do with any death camp nor approval of such treatments. Croatian and Bosnian territory was a battlefront on which at least six different armies were stationed, plus the criminal bands that were looting and exploiting the situation, large numbers of displaced people, a lot of diversion attacks on passive population, from all sides, very poor life conditions. Historian of his position should know how to approach to such population, if he has professional intentions.
And some Serbs here tell that Croats think that Albanians are low life ??
Still Albanians in Croatia live side by side, without any problem and marry each – other.
What about Serbs ?
But how low life would be a Serbian life for a Croat after reading what they done to Serbian women, chilrden, man ?
Albanian men are strong rough men, but are compassionate – that’s their Achilles heel.
You say that Albanians hate you ??
I would say that we are the last on the list !
Very interesting comment, but if the hatred of Serbs can be allocated to 'a few hundred Trojans' how do you explain the widespread love of the Ustashe in Croatia today, school children marching down the road shouting 'For Home Ready', all those chequerboard flags in every doorway? Smells like widespread fascism to me, smells like some endemic superiority syndrome deeply rooted in Croatian society?
If, in 2017, you still believe that Germans were wasting scarce, valuable resources to "gas jews" and that such a thing is possible in such a small time frame, you are not very bright. Nazis treated the jews with relative dignity in the camps until the Germans started losing the war and the allies bombed the supply routes to the concentration camps. Yes people starved and it was a tragedy. Many people died. But no, it wasn't the Germans burning people, and it was nowhere close to 6 million.
Pretty crazy when you begin to understand just how warped the version of history we are taught is.
(njegos, 26 July 2017 21:22)
Please show just one instance where I am a Ustasha revisionist, just one! You can't because I never said any such thing. You either have me confused with somebody else, or you're just a plain liar. Might I suggest you get your facts straight before hurling unsubstantiated allegations against others you don't agree with. I'll accept your apology anytime, however, I believe your inflated ego will prevent you from doing what's right.
To talk about this mess like mr. Gideon talks is completely unproffesional and below dignity of his office. It is insulting to issue phrases of hate on ethnic base, not just to Croatians but also to Holocaust survivors. Even worse if he is doing this to get interest for selling his book.
(Matt, 26 July 2017 21:01)
=====================
And you would know a lot about Holocaust survivors.
Matt, this man has been researching this topic for two years and obviously had access to a lot of material (except the monster cardinal's material). How long have you been researching this topic?
Are you going on some version of history taught in Croatia?
You seem to think of yourself as an expert on Jasenovac and the office of Mr Gideon. Is this a self proclaimed position or has someone bestowed this title on you?
One important question is why is information on the cardinal locked up and nobody is allowed to access it if there is nothing proving he is a monster? Why?
All you can do is point a finger at Serbs and say how Serbs are no better. I agree, everyone has committed crimes in wars but none to the extent of Croatians where they had nuns in charge of the only death camp for children. Imagine that, nuns playing such a role and the Vatican pretends to be holy.
Serbs need to look at their own role in genocide committed against their own Jewish population in WW2 before pointing fingers at anyone else.
(Bob, 26 July 2017 17:57)
That search took less than 10 seconds since there number of active collaborators is minuscule and none of them are being rehabilitated by the Serbian government and no Serbian football fans chant fascist slogans at games and then claim it's just patriotic emotion when condemned. Last any historian checked, the only association Serbs had with death camps is that they were inmates in them. Nice try attempting to revise history. You must be a fan of Hasanbegovic.
wierd how virtually 0 historians speak of serbs killing jews. Stop making up story lines to match the lies you believe. Croats were nazis, FACT. the catholic church is involved is so many different sick acts, support of croats killing people in a death camp is not shocking to anybody.
(Ian, 26 July 2017 19:43)
The world holocaust rememberance center Yad Vashem does. Specially about the Chetniks.
"At the initial stage, there were some Jews among the Chetniks, but when it
turned out that the Chetniks were not fighting the invaders and their
collaborators, and in fact were inclined to cooperate with them, the Jews
switched to the ranks of the partisans. As the Chetniks increased their
cooperation with the Germans, their attitude toward the Jews in the areas
under their control deteriorated, and they identified the Jews with the hated
Communists. There were many instances of Chetniks murdering Jews or
handing them over to the Germans." Yad Vashem http://www.yadvashem.org/odot_pdf/microsoft%20word%20-%20160.pdf
Historian Christopher Browning stated on the subject of Holocaust and Serbian:
“ Serbia was the only country outside Poland and the Soviet Union where all Jewish victims were killed on the spot without deportation, and was the first country after Estonia to be declared "Judenfrei", a term used by the Nazis during the Holocaust to denote an area free of all Jews.
Wiki is not a source neither is your Croatian and post WWII Communist propaganda.
Nikolaj Velimirovic was never in an "Austrian Villa" if you have proof, send the source. Nikola Velimirovic was not an Anti-Semite, his writings are theological in nature, not in reference to the Hitler and Pavelic view of Christ and Anti-Semitism. If you have the source and Anti-Semitic article, post it for all to read.
'Momcilo Đujić was a fierce foe of the Nazis, Fascists and Communists that participated in epic World War II battles and carried out many acts of wartime bravery' David Binder
Dimitrije Llotic is a whole difference story, he even collaborated with the Ustasha.
If you are really interested in the true story of the Cetnik movement with court documents and testimony, I suggest you read the following;
Patriot or Traitor, The case of Draza Mihailovic, David Binder
From Dwight: "I don't believe that you would read a book by a Jew considering all the times on here that you have said how you wish that all Jews been exterminated by the Nazis, especially the children."
Please show just one instance where I have said that I wish all Jews had been exterminated, just one! You can't because I never said any such thing. You either have me confused with somebody else, or you're just a plain liar. Might I suggest you get your facts straight before hurling unsubstantiated allegations against others you don't agree with. I'll accept your apology anytime, however, I believe your inflated ego will prevent you from doing what's right.
(njegos, 26 July 2017 21:22)
njegos,
I have not commented before, however I have been following the comments on B92 for several years. On several occasions I have read many of your vicious remarks. One need only go to the archives to read what you spew in order to determine what kind of person you are. You should be ashamed of yourself for tainting the reputation of decent Serbs.
Macek was first offered the position of Poglavnik , refused and put under house arrest by Ante Pavelic. Vladko Macek then appointed a representative to work with the Yugoslav monarchy in exile. The difference between Serbia and Croatia during the occupation of Yugoslavia by Nazi Germany is that the Croatians greeted the Nazi's with open arms and flowers in the streets of Zagreb. In Belgrade, Serbian citizens were hung from telephone pole to telephone pole across the main streets of Belgrade. Your attempt to portray the Croatians as democrats when they fully collaborated with the Nazi's is laughable, inconceivable and preposterous. Consider that only a small part of the Croatian fascists were caught in Bleiburg; look at the Croatian Ustasha populations in South America thanks to the Vatican, Franciscan monks and the ratlines.
Serbs need to look at their own role in genocide committed against their own Jewish population in WW2 before pointing fingers at anyone else.
(Bob, 26 July 2017 17:57)
The difference is that between 1941-1945, Serbia was occupied and Croatia was liberated. Serbian Jews died side by side with the Serbian Orthodox and were killed by German Nazis. In the NDH, the Ustashe butchered in the most sadistic ways several hundred thousand Serbs (mainly), Jews, Roma and anti-Nazi Croats & Bosniaks.
From Dwight: "I don't believe that you would read a book by a Jew considering all the times on here that you have said how you wish that all Jews been exterminated by the Nazis, especially the children."
Please show just one instance where I have said that I wish all Jews had been exterminated, just one! You can't because I never said any such thing. You either have me confused with somebody else, or you're just a plain liar. Might I suggest you get your facts straight before hurling unsubstantiated allegations against others you don't agree with. I'll accept your apology anytime, however, I believe your inflated ego will prevent you from doing what's right.
Matt - You are a Croatian revisionist of the highest order. The Croatian masses in conjunction with their catholic clergy, embraced Ante Pavlic and his blood thirsty butchers. The Croat masses held a ticker tape parade for Hitler and his Nazis as they entered Zagreb. How many of your relatives were there Matt? Be honest now.
Interesting that you portray the Ustasha movement and ideology as a minority movement, yet Franjo Tudjman, the father of Croatian independence invited Croat war criminals (Dinko Sakic) back to Zagreb. He also renamed streets after Ustasha war criminals and denied the Holocaust ever took place in his book. Not to mention the Croatian youth that idolizes Thompson with his Ustasha-praising songs. And let's not forget the annual memorial service held in downtown Zagreb for Ante Pavelic. Your attempts to paint this ideology as a minority movement in Croatia smacks of historical revisionism. Keep at it though, maybe one day you'll even believe the smut you write. In the meantime, there are those of us who will be there to correct your comments at every turn. Unfortunately for you and your kind, the truth comes out eventually.
@Ian
Last elections before the war were held in 1938. In Europe, cca. 98% of Germans voted for Hitler (national-socialism), cca. 98% of Italians voted in 35' for Mussolini (fascism), and 95% of Croatians voted for Vladko Macek (democracy). Ustashi were a band of several hundred trojans within Italian camps trained for what they did. In april 1941. Germans and Italians occupied monarchy of Yugoslavia, imprisoned Vlatko Macek, banned the democrat party and installed their trojan band who gave them control over Croatian economic resources and infrastructure. Country ended up in a bloody civil war a couple of months later. Created chaos was used by communist party, a trojan of Stalin, to take the lead of uprisings. Banned democrat party splitted into passive, active resistance and collaboration in smallest percent. There were three Croatia states declared! One legal state declared pre-war by Macek, one puppet state declared by occupational force and expanded to muslim area, and one declared by improvised senate called ZAVNOH that gathered communists, democrat fraction in active resistance, Catholic priest, and Serb minority that later became a foundation from which modern state was born in 90'. To talk about this mess like mr. Gideon talks is completely unproffesional and below dignity of his office. It is insulting to issue phrases of hate on ethnic base, not just to Croatians but also to Holocaust survivors. Even worse if he is doing this to get interest for selling his book.
@Jugoslavija
Milorad Vukoyichich was a leader of Schwarze Troikas death squad. His companion Shiljak was in the same squad. Episcope is well known for his support of Dimitri Ljotic and Zbor party. He is also well known for his antisemitism, which he didn't abandon even when was in Dachau where he wrote one rather notorious antisemitic pamphlet. He was placed there as honorary prisoner under privileged treatment which lasted for only three months, after which he was displaced to Austria to villa of one of SS officers working in that region, that time Adriatische Küstenland, according to wishes of Dimitri Ljotic, Momcilo Djujic and others. He was intended to take a function in government that they planned to establish within the territory, which didn't happened because Ljotic didn't survive and partisans pushed them to Italy.
BOB
wierd how virtually 0 historians speak of serbs killing jews. Stop making up story lines to match the lies you believe. Croats were nazis, FACT. the catholic church is involved is so many different sick acts, support of croats killing people in a death camp is not shocking to anybody.
Harsh words. I don't see that he accused Serbian Orthodox Church of crime and victim mocking when they canonized episcope Velimirovich, Milorad Vukoyichich (Vukojičić) and Slobodan Shiljak (Šiljak), last two leaders of a death squad,
(Matt, 26 July 2017 17:30)
Nikolaj Velimirovic was in Dachau concentration camp and then to the US. How did he get involved in so called Death camps? The other two are based on here say and not historical facts. Stepinac is entirely different with historical evidence and facts. You can imagine how much protection he was under as even Tito could not eliminate him but only put him under house arrest. He is protected by the Vatican as is Father Draganovic who used the rat lines to funnel Ustasha out of Europe to South America. The Italian camps were full of the Ustasha murderers.
Harsh words. I don't see that he accused Serbian Orthodox Church of crime and victim mocking when they canonized episcope Velimirovich, Milorad Vukoyichich (Vukojičić) and Slobodan Shiljak (Šiljak), last two leaders of a death squad, despite of their direct victims appeal. Usage of such phrases as "the Croatian hands are completely covered in blood" is definitely a hate speech, very shameful that this rethoric comes from a professor. Completely dissapointed that he yielded to this unproffesional claims and rantings.
I suggest icj1, azir, avni, dwight and all the other Ustasha revisionists on this sight read this book
(njegos, 26 July 2017 13:26)
Stephanic is a disgrace and there is no way he should be canonised. The Ustashe were scum( and still are).
Stop inventing opinions for people you disagree with.
I don't believe that you would read a book by a Jew considering all the times on here that you have said how you wish that all Jews been exterminated by the Nazis, especially the children.
"Just like Jews can sense Nazi blood Serbs can sense Croatian blood".
-Bob Dylan.
"There is a crack in everything. That's how the light gets in".
-Leonard Cohen.
No bodies were exhumed, there were no individual names, no body counts and no decent burials, all in the name of the fake 'unity and brotherhood'. The innocent women and children in Stara Gradiska camp were starved and murdered. This site provides a small data base of names showing the attempted extermination of entire families, as with the massacres in Gopsic.http://www.jusp-jasenovac.hr/Default.aspx?sid=7620In the 90s the memorial to the murdered in Gopsic was removed and the museum turned into a meeting center. This is how the victims of the Holocaust Era in Croatia are remembered.
"It was hell on earth. That is why in Jasenovac, the Croatian hands are completely covered in blood," Greif said.
The professor has been studying Jasenovac for the last two years, and has announced the publication of his book, "Jasenovac - the Auschwitz of the Balkans." He observed that Jasenovac was unique in having death camps for children.
These comments come from a Jewish Holocaust expert. I suggest icj1, azir, avni, dwight and all the other Ustasha revisionists on this sight read this book. Tito kept the horrors of the Ustasha quiet for far too long. It's time the world learns the real history of the EU's newest member.
You only have to read the chapter entitled Friends of Croatia in the book Hitler's Pope by a Catholic academic John Cornwell on the "innocence" of Stepinac during the war.
There are records where Stepinac whole heartily agreed with the Ustasha regime's policy towards non Catholics. This guy is sharing a pit of fire with Pope Pius 12 and JP2.
"It was hell on earth. That is why in Jasenovac, the Croatian hands are completely covered in blood," Greif said.
The professor has been studying Jasenovac for the last two years, and has announced the publication of his book, "Jasenovac - the Auschwitz of the Balkans." He observed that Jasenovac was unique in having death camps for children.
These comments come from a Jewish Holocaust expert. I suggest icj1, azir, avni, dwight and all the other Ustasha revisionists on this sight read this book. Tito kept the horrors of the Ustasha quiet for far too long. It's time the world learns the real history of the EU's newest member.
Thompson, the allegations are not baseless but fact. Thousands of Nazis and Ustasa were smuggled out of Europe through the Vatican to Argentina and other South American countries, Australia, Canada and the U.S. by Allen Dulles, the first director of the C.I.A. IT WAS KNOWN AS RATLINES.
You only have to read the chapter entitled Friends of Croatia in the book Hitler's Pope by a Catholic academic John Cornwell on the "innocence" of Stepinac during the war.
There are records where Stepinac whole heartily agreed with the Ustasha regime's policy towards non Catholics. This guy is sharing a pit of fire with Pope Pius 12 and JP2.
No bodies were exhumed, there were no individual names, no body counts and no decent burials, all in the name of the fake 'unity and brotherhood'. The innocent women and children in Stara Gradiska camp were starved and murdered. This site provides a small data base of names showing the attempted extermination of entire families, as with the massacres in Gopsic.http://www.jusp-jasenovac.hr/Default.aspx?sid=7620In the 90s the memorial to the murdered in Gopsic was removed and the museum turned into a meeting center. This is how the victims of the Holocaust Era in Croatia are remembered.
BOB
wierd how virtually 0 historians speak of serbs killing jews. Stop making up story lines to match the lies you believe. Croats were nazis, FACT. the catholic church is involved is so many different sick acts, support of croats killing people in a death camp is not shocking to anybody.
@ rancho rosa: Vojvoda Djujic or the Dinarska Division was never incorporated into or with the Nazis. That's a FUCKEN LIE, no matter who the source is.
"Just like Jews can sense Nazi blood Serbs can sense Croatian blood".
-Bob Dylan.
"There is a crack in everything. That's how the light gets in".
-Leonard Cohen.
Harsh words. I don't see that he accused Serbian Orthodox Church of crime and victim mocking when they canonized episcope Velimirovich, Milorad Vukoyichich (Vukojičić) and Slobodan Shiljak (Šiljak), last two leaders of a death squad,
(Matt, 26 July 2017 17:30)
Nikolaj Velimirovic was in Dachau concentration camp and then to the US. How did he get involved in so called Death camps? The other two are based on here say and not historical facts. Stepinac is entirely different with historical evidence and facts. You can imagine how much protection he was under as even Tito could not eliminate him but only put him under house arrest. He is protected by the Vatican as is Father Draganovic who used the rat lines to funnel Ustasha out of Europe to South America. The Italian camps were full of the Ustasha murderers.
From Dwight: "I don't believe that you would read a book by a Jew considering all the times on here that you have said how you wish that all Jews been exterminated by the Nazis, especially the children."
Please show just one instance where I have said that I wish all Jews had been exterminated, just one! You can't because I never said any such thing. You either have me confused with somebody else, or you're just a plain liar. Might I suggest you get your facts straight before hurling unsubstantiated allegations against others you don't agree with. I'll accept your apology anytime, however, I believe your inflated ego will prevent you from doing what's right.
Harsh words. I don't see that he accused Serbian Orthodox Church of crime and victim mocking when they canonized episcope Velimirovich, Milorad Vukoyichich (Vukojičić) and Slobodan Shiljak (Šiljak), last two leaders of a death squad, despite of their direct victims appeal. Usage of such phrases as "the Croatian hands are completely covered in blood" is definitely a hate speech, very shameful that this rethoric comes from a professor. Completely dissapointed that he yielded to this unproffesional claims and rantings.
Pretty crazy when you begin to understand just how warped the version of history we are taught is.
(Bob, 27 July 2017 08:43)
--
Now Bob has made his historical position clear.
Apparently the massacre of a few thousand Bosnian Muslim soldiers after evacuating women, children and the elderly is genocide.
And the gassing of a few million Jews, women, children and the elderly by the NAZIs is not genocide, it is a misunderstanding and caused by the allies cutting supply lines.
Yep, this is the kind of anti-Serbian mentality we are dealing with. Even the Germans themselves admit to genocide.
The one indisputable fact is that the willful killings of Jews, Serbs, Roma and other ethnicities were predominantly perpetrated by the Croat Ustasha and German Nazis.
(Amnesty Yugoslavia, 28 July 2017 16:04)
Absolutely, similarly to the one indisputable fact that the willful killings of Jews, Serbs, Roma and other ethnicities in Serbia were predominantly perpetrated by the Nedic government and German Nazis.
@Ian
Last elections before the war were held in 1938. In Europe, cca. 98% of Germans voted for Hitler (national-socialism), cca. 98% of Italians voted in 35' for Mussolini (fascism), and 95% of Croatians voted for Vladko Macek (democracy). Ustashi were a band of several hundred trojans within Italian camps trained for what they did. In april 1941. Germans and Italians occupied monarchy of Yugoslavia, imprisoned Vlatko Macek, banned the democrat party and installed their trojan band who gave them control over Croatian economic resources and infrastructure. Country ended up in a bloody civil war a couple of months later. Created chaos was used by communist party, a trojan of Stalin, to take the lead of uprisings. Banned democrat party splitted into passive, active resistance and collaboration in smallest percent. There were three Croatia states declared! One legal state declared pre-war by Macek, one puppet state declared by occupational force and expanded to muslim area, and one declared by improvised senate called ZAVNOH that gathered communists, democrat fraction in active resistance, Catholic priest, and Serb minority that later became a foundation from which modern state was born in 90'. To talk about this mess like mr. Gideon talks is completely unproffesional and below dignity of his office. It is insulting to issue phrases of hate on ethnic base, not just to Croatians but also to Holocaust survivors. Even worse if he is doing this to get interest for selling his book.
Very interesting comment, but if the hatred of Serbs can be allocated to 'a few hundred Trojans' how do you explain the widespread love of the Ustashe in Croatia today, school children marching down the road shouting 'For Home Ready', all those chequerboard flags in every doorway? Smells like widespread fascism to me, smells like some endemic superiority syndrome deeply rooted in Croatian society?
They couldn't even find more than cca 10 000 volunteers up to 1942, most ranks were filled by conscription and administrative reordering when they reached little less than 30 000 up to 1943., the rest are Homeland who were old monarchial army and conscripted population that was loyal to old representatives with very small combat value for occupational force, they were also a base for partisan ranks recruitment).
(Matt, 27 July 2017 11:46)
Yes we all know that according to the Croats it was the Serbs that sided with the Germans. However, history paints a different picture. Too bad you cant erase that, fascists bastards.
Historian Christopher Browning stated on the subject of Holocaust and Serbian:
“ Serbia was the only country outside Poland and the Soviet Union where all Jewish victims were killed on the spot without deportation, and was the first country after Estonia to be declared "Judenfrei", a term used by the Nazis during the Holocaust to denote an area free of all Jews.
(Gjon Marku, 26 July 2017 23:38)
Yes, carried out in large part by the Germans. You seem to keep forgetting this crucial piece of information that keeps your opinions from becoming a valid argument. What support came from the Nedic quisling government was statistically too small to undertake the crimes you seem to attribute to Belgrade.
Harald Turner and Emanuel Schafer don't sound like a Serbian name.
If you're going to make references to Serbia being "Judenfrei" please have the intellectual decency to finish the analysis by connecting the deed and the statements to the right groups.
Quite amazing how Albanians are trying to say Serbians sided with NAZI Germany. Every side had collaborators, the British Queen and her family had links to the NAZIs, Prominent American business men, politicians and banks had collaborated with the NAZIs and Serbia under occupation had links also but all in all, we fought against them.
I know of not one Serb today who supports NAZIs, and we are proud to be part of its defeat. However, Albanians, Croatians and many others see that defeat as a loss, not a victory like Serbs and Russians, who celebrate each year.
Chetniks march on ANZAC day in Australia, as part of the Allied forces who defeated fascism. Croats are nowhere to be seen, neither are Albanians.
Well, according to the Nuremberg Trials, it was proven beyond any reasonable doubt that Croatia was also occupied by the Nazis, just like Serbia. Sorry for shattering your dreams, dear, but facts are really stubborn...
(icj1, 28 July 2017 02:55)
---
A few facts for icj1, the CB of B92. The trial of The United States of America v. Wilhelm List, et al. was held from 8 July 1947 until 19 February 1948 and was the seventh of US run showcases. It did take place in US occupied Nuremberg, but it was a US military court and not the more recognized International Military Tribunal. No part of the trial or evidence includes any statements or comparisons of the NDH to Serbia. The "just like Serbia" exists only in the warped mind of icj1. Equating the murderous NDH as "just like Serbia" is typical daily drivel from our Ustasha apologist icj1. icj1 is the same commentator who in the past has celebrated crimes against religious institutions, and displayed an affection for debunked Mengele- based medicine. Idiocy, Ignorance and intolerance continue to define icj1.....just like his/her NDH criminal heroes.
@Tony (a Brit currently working in Berlin)
If Stepinac was a person that Serb Orthodox Church with ultranationalists claims to be, then Amiel Shomrony would not two times submitted a request to Yad Vashem to recognize him as a Righteous Among the Nations. Amiel Shomrony was chief rabbi Shalom Freiberger's secretary during the occupation of Zagreb. Branko Lustig who produced the Schindlers list also shares the same conviction. Mr. Greif resolute accusation is over-exaggerated, maybe even misinformed.
Show me one picture of a catholic priest blessing weapons and I show you 100 pictures of serb/russian/greek orthodox priests blessing weapons
=================
Gjon, I would suggest you don't play poker. If you want to raise stakes be careful because there was a concentration camp just for children run by Catholic nuns in Croatia. The only concentration camp just for children ever.
You can fold your cards now.
Macek was first offered the position of Poglavnik , refused and put under house arrest by Ante Pavelic. Vladko Macek then appointed a representative to work with the Yugoslav monarchy in exile. The difference between Serbia and Croatia during the occupation of Yugoslavia by Nazi Germany is that the Croatians greeted the Nazi's with open arms and flowers in the streets of Zagreb. In Belgrade, Serbian citizens were hung from telephone pole to telephone pole across the main streets of Belgrade. Your attempt to portray the Croatians as democrats when they fully collaborated with the Nazi's is laughable, inconceivable and preposterous. Consider that only a small part of the Croatian fascists were caught in Bleiburg; look at the Croatian Ustasha populations in South America thanks to the Vatican, Franciscan monks and the ratlines.
Serbs need to look at their own role in genocide committed against their own Jewish population in WW2 before pointing fingers at anyone else.
(Bob, 26 July 2017 17:57)
That search took less than 10 seconds since there number of active collaborators is minuscule and none of them are being rehabilitated by the Serbian government and no Serbian football fans chant fascist slogans at games and then claim it's just patriotic emotion when condemned. Last any historian checked, the only association Serbs had with death camps is that they were inmates in them. Nice try attempting to revise history. You must be a fan of Hasanbegovic.
To talk about this mess like mr. Gideon talks is completely unproffesional and below dignity of his office. It is insulting to issue phrases of hate on ethnic base, not just to Croatians but also to Holocaust survivors. Even worse if he is doing this to get interest for selling his book.
(Matt, 26 July 2017 21:01)
=====================
And you would know a lot about Holocaust survivors.
Matt, this man has been researching this topic for two years and obviously had access to a lot of material (except the monster cardinal's material). How long have you been researching this topic?
Are you going on some version of history taught in Croatia?
You seem to think of yourself as an expert on Jasenovac and the office of Mr Gideon. Is this a self proclaimed position or has someone bestowed this title on you?
One important question is why is information on the cardinal locked up and nobody is allowed to access it if there is nothing proving he is a monster? Why?
All you can do is point a finger at Serbs and say how Serbs are no better. I agree, everyone has committed crimes in wars but none to the extent of Croatians where they had nuns in charge of the only death camp for children. Imagine that, nuns playing such a role and the Vatican pretends to be holy.
gjon
the only real cetniks were the ones controlled by mihajlovic. all others may have called themselves cetniks, but had nothing to do with the real command of draza. nice try though. you can actually find pictures of albanians and other muslims collaborating with nazis. albania did 0 to liberate europe, they have always been a cancer, like a parasite on the balkans
What's wrong Dwight? Still can't find anything in the archives to support your false allegations? Just as I stated, you're a liar and a coward. Now you're aligning yourself with icj1, the biggest Ustasha sympathizer and historical revisionist on this site. You're really scrapping the bottom of the barrel. You know what they say, 'you are the company you keep.' icj1 has been called out as liar, fraud and historical revisionist. When asked to defend herself, she runs away to another thread to continue her Serb-bashing. You're both pathetic...but entertaining.
They are UNWCC recommended and relevant exemplary cases for application and interpretation of international law in relevant issues, particularly List case in this volume. This includes judgment remarks and other notes, and no one serious will exclude them from historiographical research and determining the general event framework. Remark about puppet state status is relevant for getting insight in general situation development, that was ranted as "revisionist". My first comment was about Mr. Greif's inappropriate remarks that contrary to that targeted entire ethnic population while giving support to Serb Orthodox Church and their political affiliates in case in front of Vatican Commision, at the same time ignoring that they canonized notorious antisemite and fascist episcope, together with a "priest" Vukoyichich (Vukojičić) from Schwarze Troikas that even has a verdict of being guilty of murder of ten persons in Montenegro, and Shiljak, if I haven't mistranslated his affiliation (not my field of interest), also being under accusation of murder, regardlessly how this is embarrasing to himself and might deteriorate reputation of instituion that he currently represents and what it tries to represent. I wonder how long will Israel authorities continue to swallow what they are serving them.
I suggest icj1, azir, avni, dwight and all the other Ustasha revisionists on this sight read this book
(njegos, 26 July 2017 13:26)
Stephanic is a disgrace and there is no way he should be canonised. The Ustashe were scum( and still are).
Stop inventing opinions for people you disagree with.
I don't believe that you would read a book by a Jew considering all the times on here that you have said how you wish that all Jews been exterminated by the Nazis, especially the children.
@Jugoslavija
Milorad Vukoyichich was a leader of Schwarze Troikas death squad. His companion Shiljak was in the same squad. Episcope is well known for his support of Dimitri Ljotic and Zbor party. He is also well known for his antisemitism, which he didn't abandon even when was in Dachau where he wrote one rather notorious antisemitic pamphlet. He was placed there as honorary prisoner under privileged treatment which lasted for only three months, after which he was displaced to Austria to villa of one of SS officers working in that region, that time Adriatische Küstenland, according to wishes of Dimitri Ljotic, Momcilo Djujic and others. He was intended to take a function in government that they planned to establish within the territory, which didn't happened because Ljotic didn't survive and partisans pushed them to Italy.
@Amnesty
Law Reports of Trials of War Criminals by The UN War Crimes Commision, volume VIII, 1949., no. 47 Trial of Wilhelm List and others, section A, subsection 3. Judgement, number xii under title "The Legal Status of the "Croatian Government"", p.72 - 74.
Serbs need to look at their own role in genocide committed against their own Jewish population in WW2 before pointing fingers at anyone else.
(Bob, 26 July 2017 17:57)
The difference is that between 1941-1945, Serbia was occupied and Croatia was liberated. Serbian Jews died side by side with the Serbian Orthodox and were killed by German Nazis. In the NDH, the Ustashe butchered in the most sadistic ways several hundred thousand Serbs (mainly), Jews, Roma and anti-Nazi Croats & Bosniaks.
wierd how virtually 0 historians speak of serbs killing jews. Stop making up story lines to match the lies you believe. Croats were nazis, FACT. the catholic church is involved is so many different sick acts, support of croats killing people in a death camp is not shocking to anybody.
(Ian, 26 July 2017 19:43)
The world holocaust rememberance center Yad Vashem does. Specially about the Chetniks.
"At the initial stage, there were some Jews among the Chetniks, but when it
turned out that the Chetniks were not fighting the invaders and their
collaborators, and in fact were inclined to cooperate with them, the Jews
switched to the ranks of the partisans. As the Chetniks increased their
cooperation with the Germans, their attitude toward the Jews in the areas
under their control deteriorated, and they identified the Jews with the hated
Communists. There were many instances of Chetniks murdering Jews or
handing them over to the Germans." Yad Vashem http://www.yadvashem.org/odot_pdf/microsoft%20word%20-%20160.pdf
Historian Christopher Browning stated on the subject of Holocaust and Serbian:
“ Serbia was the only country outside Poland and the Soviet Union where all Jewish victims were killed on the spot without deportation, and was the first country after Estonia to be declared "Judenfrei", a term used by the Nazis during the Holocaust to denote an area free of all Jews.
And some Serbs here tell that Croats think that Albanians are low life ??
Still Albanians in Croatia live side by side, without any problem and marry each – other.
What about Serbs ?
But how low life would be a Serbian life for a Croat after reading what they done to Serbian women, chilrden, man ?
Albanian men are strong rough men, but are compassionate – that’s their Achilles heel.
You say that Albanians hate you ??
I would say that we are the last on the list !
Maybe you believe your own historians (Dr. Jovan Marjanovic & Mihail Stanisic) and your own archives:
(Gjon Marku, 27 July 2017 20:34)
No, I believe conventional historians throughout academia as well as common logic of the capabilities of an invading power controlling conquered territory populated by communities that by and large were systematically targeted by Germans, Croats, Hungarians, Bulgarians, and Albanians. I also have the easily accessible information on Allies looking at Yugoslavia, and Serbia in particular, as "Occupied Territory" instead of "Axis Allied".
Finding one example of a concentration camp in southern Belgrade, which was largely the only city/town where Nedic had some authority hardly makes the case that Serbs were collaborators; especially since another camp much closer to central Belgrade on the other side of the Sava in NDH-controlled territory housed Serb prisoners.
But good for you still trying to desperately beat this dead horse in some attempt at making a point I've already lost interest in entertaining you on.
Law Reports of Trials of War Criminals by The UN War Crimes Commision, volume VIII, 1949., no. 47 Trial of Wilhelm List and others, section A, subsection 3. Judgement, number xii under title "The Legal Status of the "Croatian Government"", p.72 - 74.
(Matt, 28 July 2017 16:40)
----
Yes, the UN Law Reports from 1949 also emphasize that the trial was not conducted by the Nuremberg International Military Tribunal, but in contrast was uni-national US military court. Thank you for providing additional reference to this fact, stubbornly ignored by others.
@ Matt:
Serious consideration should indeed be given to the distinction between the Nuremberg IMT and the showcase trials run by US military tribunals where whitewashing of international war crimes was, and still is, common place.
...that Serb Orthodox Church with ultranationalists ...
(Matt, 29 July 2017 08:34)
---
No need to display your bias with broad strokes and derogatory remarks about an entire religion. Please do continue and blindly ignore the corrupt US military, and laughably reference their unproven statements about the NDH. What most serious historians do acknowledge is that many of the 20th and 21st centuries untried and unpunished war crimes, such as the genocide in Vietnam, were perpetrated by the US military.
If you wish to continue as yet another Ustasha apologist, then please avoid invoking a reference to one if the histories greatest criminal enterprises.
Disgusting. All those poor people who died...I can't imagine...but by looking at his crooked face I can catch a glimpse of all the sorrow, pain and fear this sadist caused.
... similarly to the Pavelic puppet government, joined the Nazis to kill Jews, Serbs, Roma and other ethnicities.
(icj1, 29 July 2017 21:38)
----
icj1, the CB of B92, ignores facts and failed basic language skills. The Pavelic Nezavisna Država Hrvatska government proclaimed themselves "Independent" and not a "puppet". Only in the warped mind of icj1 and corrupt US military tribunals is the word "nezavisna" understood as "puppet". Laughable.
Serbia suffered the German Army military occupation as the rest of Yugoslavia.
. (icj1, 1 August 2017 02:30)
---
icj1, the CB of B92, once again ignores those "stubborn facts".
Parts of Serbia were occupied by the German Military, whereas some other parts of Serbia and all of current day Republika Srpska were occupied by the Nezavisna (i.e. Independent) NDH. icj1 and other Ustasha apologists should stop ignoring those pesky and stubborn facts.
Idiocy, ignorance and intolerance continue to define icj1.
Matt - You are a Croatian revisionist of the highest order. The Croatian masses in conjunction with their catholic clergy, embraced Ante Pavlic and his blood thirsty butchers. The Croat masses held a ticker tape parade for Hitler and his Nazis as they entered Zagreb. How many of your relatives were there Matt? Be honest now.
Interesting that you portray the Ustasha movement and ideology as a minority movement, yet Franjo Tudjman, the father of Croatian independence invited Croat war criminals (Dinko Sakic) back to Zagreb. He also renamed streets after Ustasha war criminals and denied the Holocaust ever took place in his book. Not to mention the Croatian youth that idolizes Thompson with his Ustasha-praising songs. And let's not forget the annual memorial service held in downtown Zagreb for Ante Pavelic. Your attempts to paint this ideology as a minority movement in Croatia smacks of historical revisionism. Keep at it though, maybe one day you'll even believe the smut you write. In the meantime, there are those of us who will be there to correct your comments at every turn. Unfortunately for you and your kind, the truth comes out eventually.
Wiki is not a source neither is your Croatian and post WWII Communist propaganda.
Nikolaj Velimirovic was never in an "Austrian Villa" if you have proof, send the source. Nikola Velimirovic was not an Anti-Semite, his writings are theological in nature, not in reference to the Hitler and Pavelic view of Christ and Anti-Semitism. If you have the source and Anti-Semitic article, post it for all to read.
'Momcilo Đujić was a fierce foe of the Nazis, Fascists and Communists that participated in epic World War II battles and carried out many acts of wartime bravery' David Binder
Dimitrije Llotic is a whole difference story, he even collaborated with the Ustasha.
If you are really interested in the true story of the Cetnik movement with court documents and testimony, I suggest you read the following;
Patriot or Traitor, The case of Draza Mihailovic, David Binder
@miles
This is a mixture of hooligan subculture, confusion created by political rantings from all sides followed by media exagerations and even false reportings, low knowledge of not so simple history leading to non-differentiation of what represents what to whom, noting that slogans are rather simple and various subjective meanings can be imposed on them, bringing more to confusion. You could probably find more reasons, but not fascism, most hardly know anything about it.
@Peggy
This "version" of history is ordinary historiography that you could find in any even old Yugoslavian books. First time heard that Cardinal is "locked up" or similar conspiratorial nonsense. One can have any impression on him as he like, but he doesnt have anything to do with any death camp nor approval of such treatments. Croatian and Bosnian territory was a battlefront on which at least six different armies were stationed, plus the criminal bands that were looting and exploiting the situation, large numbers of displaced people, a lot of diversion attacks on passive population, from all sides, very poor life conditions. Historian of his position should know how to approach to such population, if he has professional intentions.
@njegos
On territory of old Yugoslavia lived about a half of million Volksdeutchers, around 150 to 200 000 on territory of what is modern day Croatia, mostly in northern parts. German divisions with Croatian marks were formed from their population. It is not clear who showed open sympathy for German army, and some of them had both Croatian and German identity affiliation. Majority was indifferent. According to US Military Tribunal trial on List and others, around 5% showed support to representatives of the puppet state. German generals were reporting even before dissolution of Soviet-Germany treaty that the occupation was not accepted in majority of the occupied territory. Franjo Tudjman was Tito's partisan and personally fought Nazi's, regardless of whether someone likes him or not. Dinko Sakic was arrested and prosecuted.
From Spotter: "njegos,
I have not commented before, however I have been following the comments on B92 for several years. On several occasions I have read many of your vicious remarks. One need only go to the archives to read what you spew in order to determine what kind of person you are. You should be ashamed of yourself for tainting the reputation of decent Serbs."
Please provide some examples Spotter. Go to the archives that you mention. My comments, more than anything, defend Serbs against historical revisionists and are, for the most part, in response to distorted information spewed from Croat and Albanian apologists who can't come to grips with their own history. Additionally, most of what I present are researchable facts from reliable sources. My guess is that you are not a Serb. Please be more specific about what I've said that bothers you. I'd love to have a discussion with you.
Show me one picture of a catholic priest blessing weapons and I show you 100 pictures of serb/russian/greek orthodox priests blessing weapons. Dude, the serb/russian/greek orthodox priests are phisically and mentaly stuck in the stoneage. Primitive mysticists with a flair for Jesus.
@njegos
You made a completely unsubsantiated comment about me being a "Ustasha revisionist" and are now outraged that someone invents stories about you.
Once you provide a link to my Ustasha revisionist comments, I will provide a link to your comments where you said that you were delighted that so few Jews are left in Serbia.
Those population numbers are current, obviously the Croatian populations in South America grew since 1945. What do you think? The Croatians loved South America so much they went on holidays!
(Jugoslavija, 27 July 2017 18:03)
Totally baseless allegations. Please provide evidence from unbiased sources.
What's wrong Dwight, can't you find all of those comments of mine that referenced my negative comments about Jews? I'm still waiting. Where are they? You are a liar and a coward. And please don't repost my comments as if they were your own as you did previously. Try thinking for yourself for a change.
(njegos, 28 July 2017 05:43)
What's wrong njegos, you cannot find any comments to support your accusation that I am a Ustashe revisionist, so you continue to talk about Jews, you are obsessed with them, I think I have hit a nerve?
Now icj1 is saying that you are picking on the Serbs .... is it because they wouldn't kill the Jews?
Absolutely, similarly to the one indisputable fact that the willful killings of Jews, Serbs, Roma and other ethnicities in Serbia were predominantly perpetrated by the Nedic government and German Nazis.
(icj1, 28 July 2017 16:45)
Icj1's motto, 'A lie with each breath'.
Serbia wad militarily occupied by the German Army, unlike the NDH who did all on their lonesome. Nedic's authority barely reached beyond the buildings the the Germans let him occupy.
I can't wait for icj1's forthcoming revisionism out the Holocaust, written with Auschwitz Azir. You are both numpties.
@jugoslavia
Momcilo Djujic was directly subordinated to Odilo Globocnik and incorporated his division within Karl Taus area or responsibility, he also formed a battlegroup with Enrst Lerch during the operation Frühlingsanfang in Operationszone Adriatisches Küstenland where he received a company of 120 elite SS from Trieste headquarters. Reinhard Kopps was in his staff for more than a year. (Half of mill. ustashis? Really? They couldn't even find more than cca 10 000 volunteers up to 1942, most ranks were filled by conscription and administrative reordering when they reached little less than 30 000 up to 1943., the rest are Homeland who were old monarchial army and conscripted population that was loyal to old representatives with very small combat value for occupational force, they were also a base for partisan ranks recruitment).
Todays war criminals have video camera's and and record themselves getting blessed by a Serbian Orthodox priest before going to murder people.
(Mark.W, 27 July 2017 04:08)
I think it's adorable you believe the early to mid 1990s during war time constitutes "today".
To Matt the revisionist: Here are accounts of those killed from German Generals:400,000 Serbs (Alexander Löhr); 350,000 Serbs (Lothar Rendulic); around 300,000 (Edmund Glaise von Horstenau); in 1943; "600–700,000 until March 1944" (Ernst Fick); 700,000 (Massenbach). Hermann Neubacher calculates:
The recipe, received by the Ustaše leader and Poglavnik, the president of the Independent State of Croatia, Ante Pavelić, resembled genocidal intentions from some of the bloodiest religious wars: "A third must become Catholic, a third must leave the country, and a third must die!" This last point of the Ustaše program was accomplished. When prominent Ustaše leaders claimed that they slaughtered a million Serbs (including babies, children, women and old men), that is, in my opinion, a boastful exaggeration. On the basis of the reports submitted to me, I believe that the number of defenseless victims slaughtered to be three quarters of a million.[101]
Italian generals reported similar figures to their commanders.[102] The Vatican's sources also speak of similar figures, that is, for an example, of 350,000 ethnic-Serbs slaughtered by the end of 1942 (Eugene Tisserant).[103]
The Germans, as we know, are known for their detail and record keeping.
If you're going to make references to Serbia being "Judenfrei" please have the intellectual decency to finish the analysis by connecting the deed and the statements to the right groups.
(Balkan Anthropologist, 27 July 2017 16:03)
Maybe you believe your own historians (Dr. Jovan Marjanovic & Mihail Stanisic) and your own archives:
The long concealed Historical Archives in Belgrade reveal that Banjica, a concentration camp located in Belgrade, was primarily staffed by Serbs. Funding for the conversion of the former barracks of the Serbian 18th infantry division to a concentration, came from the municipal budget of Belgrade. The camp was divided into German and Serbian sections. From Banjica there survive death lists written entirely in Serbian in the Cyrillic alphabet. At least 23,697 victims passed through the Serbian section of this camp. Many were Jews, including at least 798 children, of whom at least 120 were shot by Serbian guards.
The difference is that between 1941-1945, Serbia was occupied and Croatia was liberated.
(Ari Gold, 26 July 2017 22:40)
Well, according to the Nuremberg Trials, it was proven beyond any reasonable doubt that Croatia was also occupied by the Nazis, just like Serbia. Sorry for shattering your dreams, dear, but facts are really stubborn...
Now icj1 is saying that you are picking on the Serbs .... is it because they wouldn't kill the Jews?
(Dwight, 28 July 2017 14:36)
---
icj1, the CB of B92, has demonstrated themself as an Ustasha apologist. Idiotic inferences from the warped mind of icj1 are incomprehensible to sane people. The one indisputable fact is that the willful killings of Jews, Serbs, Roma and other ethnicities were predominantly perpetrated by the Croat Ustasha and German Nazis.
Absolutely, similarly to the one indisputable fact that the willful killings of Jews, Serbs, Roma and other ethnicities in Serbia were predominantly perpetrated by the Nedic government and German Nazis. (icj1, 28 July 2017 16:45)
---
Once again, those "stubborn facts" elude icj1, the CB of B92. Parts of current day Serbia and the entire region of today's Republika Srpska were occupied by the murderous Croat NDH, and not the "Nedic government". The killing of Jews, Serbs, Roma and other ethnicities across Yugoslavia was predominantly perpetrated by the Croat Ustasha.
Amnesty Yugoslavia and icj1 are the same person. No one can be as deliberately stupid as icj1. Amnesty has set-up this continual exchange with a straw-man, to mock the Croats.
(Ned, 29 July 2017 11:08)
---
Ned, although icj1 writes under many monikers, I am not icj1.
First and foremost, I am indeed a human person, which obviously distinguishes me from icj1.
icj1 is the CB of B92 who is a self-diagnosed nihilist that literally celebrates crimes against religious institutions. icj1 also favors Mengele's idiotic (un)scientific concepts of medical diagnoses linked to ethnicity. In contrast to icj1, I admire and defend the multi-ethnic south Slav people called Yugoslavs. Perhaps the only semblance of accuracy in your remark is the association of stupidity and icj1.
...than (sic) the Nedic Влада народног спаса proclaimed itself as the "salvation" of the Serbs.... (icj1, 30 July 2017 22:20)
----
icj1, the CB of B92, continually wishes to emphasize their many failures. The Nedic government never proclaimed themselves as the "salvation of the Serbs". Those words only exist in the warped mind of icj1. Perhaps our resident bigot should learn the actual meaning of the word "народног".
Idiocy, ignorance and intolerance continue to define icj1.
...but Ustashi administration created a problem when they banned further colonization...
(Matt, 1 August 2017 08:27)
---
Matt,
Your narratives are apparently inconsistent. Today you write the NDH and Ustashi were independent administrators and executed powers to ban colonization. It's certainly not the "puppet" state that icj1 and the corrupt US military tribunal falsely claim.
Thank you for your inconsistencies and providing this reference.
From dwight: "Please show just one instance where I am a Ustasha revisionist, just one! You can't because I never said any such thing. You either have me confused with somebody else, or you're just a plain liar. Might I suggest you get your facts straight before hurling unsubstantiated allegations against others you don't agree with. I'll accept your apology anytime, however, I believe your inflated ego will prevent you from doing what's right."
You know what they say, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. Therefore, since you reposted, almost word for word, my comments to you, I'll take that as a compliment. Next time though, try coming up with your own thoughts, as hard as that may be for you. And back to your original comments to me, please show me where I said anything negative toward Jews. Please just one!
gjon
the only real cetniks were the ones controlled by mihajlovic. all others may have called themselves cetniks, but had nothing to do with the real command of draza. nice try though. you can actually find pictures of albanians and other muslims collaborating with nazis. albania did 0 to liberate europe, they have always been a cancer, like a parasite on the balkans
(ian, 27 July 2017 18:52)
Sure. If you actually belive what you just wrote, despite the massive amount of evidence ( photos, documents etc.), then you are a special kind of stupid my little chetnik
Check Yad Vashem what they say about the chetniks.
Thanks for your knowledge on this subject. It is very informative.
You have just raised the quality of discussions on this web site. I look forward to reading more of your well thoughtout comments which show a degree of knowledge that is truely lacking on this site.
@Peggy
If you are refering to Mr. Gideon's reference in this article in terms of an extermination subcamp for children, then those indications may be slightly problematic. Children brought from desolated areas into regular camps were exclusively on insistance of Mrs. D. Budisavljevic and Red Cross relocated to improvised shelters at cities Sisak and Jastrebarsko near Zagreb where were runned under administration of social affairs since they would almost certainly die in regular camps. Red Cross sent about a dozen nuns and medical personell to assist in their relocation, which was a result of what is known as Mrs. Budisavljevic Action for extraction of children from concentration camps. At each city local families were taking those children as refugees to their homes, which was called "colonization", but Ustashi administration created a problem when they banned further colonization, so large number of children were left without proper care thus causing humanitarian disaster, especially at city of Sisak. After the Archbishop intervened to lift the ban, colonization continued. Budisavljevic, Caritas and monsignor Paul Jesih from the Archdiocese organized the colonization for about 5-6 000 children to the end of 1942., mostly through local churches and their organizations. In other words these were not extermination camps as those from which they were brought, as Gideon might allude in the article for reasons known to him only.
Based on November 1943. intelligence report of the 114. Hunting Division to the Chief of Staff of 15th Mountain Army Corps. of Wehrmacht regarding Chetnik cooperation, Djujic is described as a "member of Ljotic movement". British intelligence sources confirm his siding. According to Zb. NOR, VI/19, p.842., describing battles in Slovenia, that time part of Adriatische Küstenland, no. 170, order no.1707/45 issued by Ia department of the office of the Commandant of the SS and Police in Adriatische Küstenland, Odilo Globocnik, on March 19, 1945., Subject: Action of Chetnik Dinara Division units, the Stabskompanie (120 men) of the SS in Trieste under the command of Ernst Lerch is to be assigned under the command of the Commandant of the SS and Police in Gorizia, Karl Taus. The Stabskompanie's task is to integrate among the brigades of Dinara Division and through personal assistance to the commanding officers of the brigades simplify the order transmission on the field. Second task is to motivate the activities of the Chetnik brigades and in mutual efforts perform reconnaissance tasks in whole Vipava valley and deeper to the east, while Ernst Lerch maintains close coordination with vo. Djujic. This is only a fragment of entire activities in the operation which is a common subject of works of history students of University in Ljubljana and elsewhere.
(njegos, 26 July 2017 21:22)
Please show just one instance where I am a Ustasha revisionist, just one! You can't because I never said any such thing. You either have me confused with somebody else, or you're just a plain liar. Might I suggest you get your facts straight before hurling unsubstantiated allegations against others you don't agree with. I'll accept your apology anytime, however, I believe your inflated ego will prevent you from doing what's right.
The killing of Jews, Serbs, Roma and other ethnicities across Yugoslavia was predominantly perpetrated by the Croat Ustasha.
(Amnesty Yugoslavia, 28 July 2017 18:53)
and by the Nedic puppet government, which, similarly to the Pavelic puppet government, joined the Nazis to kill Jews, Serbs, Roma and other ethnicities.
It looks like icj1 is stepping up to the plate as B92's chief troll since Auschwitz Azir had his disgusting comments removed by b92 mods. He consistently winds up other commenters because he enjoys it, so he's a nasty piece of work and it's proud of it too.
Occupation summary was around 40 German Intelligence centres in Zagreb (HSSPF was running under different name) and a smaller count in around 124 cities over the territory, approx. 300 - 350 000 German soldiers, Italian army count prior to capitulation was approx. 150 - 200 000 soldiers in their zone, excluding other armies, all confiscating resources to Croatian and Bosnian population burdening already deteriorated life conditions, at the same time conscripting them into controlled puppet army, Ustashis were running local administration and camps under occupational surveillance. If those shelters were their invention, this would cause a logical problem since it would imply humanitarian intention on their side, which was not the case. What belongs to them is a humanitarian problem they caused in running those shelters they allowed to be established due to political pressures created from humanitarian organizations and individuals that initiated housings of children.
Momcilo Djujic was directly subordinated to Odilo Globocnik and incorporated his division within Karl Taus area or responsibility, he also formed a battlegroup with Enrst Lerch during the operation Frühlingsanfang in Operationszone Adriatisches Küstenland where he received a company of 120 elite SS from Trieste headquarters. Reinhard Kopps was in his staff for more than a year. ...
(Matt, 27 July 2017 11:46)
And Zuroff receives an award from this guy's affiliate Nikolic earlier this year.
(Half of mill. ustashis? Really? They couldn't even find more than cca 10 000 volunteers up to 1942, most ranks were filled by conscription and administrative reordering when they reached little less than 30 000 up to 1943.,
(Matt, 27 July 2017 11:46)
Those population numbers are current, obviously the Croatian populations in South America grew since 1945. What do you think? The Croatians loved South America so much they went on holidays!
It seems your are clueless when jt comes to world affairs. Of course the globalist government of Germany will admit to the Holocaust. That does not mean that it isn't a made up story.
Serbia, on the other hand, unlike Nazis, committed REAL genocide. Just like the Turks did.
From Dwight: "I don't believe that you would read a book by a Jew considering all the times on here that you have said how you wish that all Jews been exterminated by the Nazis, especially the children."
Please show just one instance where I have said that I wish all Jews had been exterminated, just one! You can't because I never said any such thing. You either have me confused with somebody else, or you're just a plain liar. Might I suggest you get your facts straight before hurling unsubstantiated allegations against others you don't agree with. I'll accept your apology anytime, however, I believe your inflated ego will prevent you from doing what's right.
(njegos, 26 July 2017 21:22)
njegos,
I have not commented before, however I have been following the comments on B92 for several years. On several occasions I have read many of your vicious remarks. One need only go to the archives to read what you spew in order to determine what kind of person you are. You should be ashamed of yourself for tainting the reputation of decent Serbs.
The idea and the word of holocaust (catastrophy) both appeared 9 years after WW2 in the USA in 1954. At Nurenberg Tribunal the Jewish tragedy wasn't considered something extraordinary compared to the tragedies of th Russians, Byelorussians, Ukrainians, Poles, Roma ect. But Rothschilds could not finance Israel all the time so they put additional 1 Trln DM contribution on Germany. ww1 AND WW2 had one more dimention - those were also WARS OF THE ROCKELFELLERS AGAINST THE ROTHSCHIELS.
USSR and Russia have never admitted holocaust and nobody told us a word about it because all the documents are still in Moscow. That's why you will never find any statistics about holocaust in any state. 6 000 000 victims figures were offered by Stern Magazine in 1955. Other figures discussed were from 1 to 10 mln that was total absurd. Jasenovac and Auschwitz cannot be compared because Auschwitz was a city that included 13 camps like Jasenovac where 90% of prisoners were Slavs. Everything is well documented and all the papers are here in Moscow region. Hitler did not mean to eliminate the Jews but tried to export them everywhere he could.
Amnesty Yugoslavia and icj1 are the same person. No one can be as deliberately stupid as icj1. Amnesty has set-up this continual exchange with a straw-man, to mock the Croats.
Nope, he received it in February this year. Google it. Nikolic is Šešelj's best man, and listen what he says how they founded their movement: https://youtu.be/s9ehEyZhHJs?t=39
Transcription: "I do not know if it is known to you, the only living Serbian Chetnik Warlord Momcilo Djujic from WW2, that lived in America, has declared me for a Serbian Chetnik Warlord in 1989., much prior to the war. To save this tradition, because if he had died prior to my declaration, that tradition would not have continuity. Thank to his act, this continuity has been preserved. Then I have declared around 19 or 20 other warlords." One of those warlords was his best man Nikolic who became the state president.
If, in 2017, you still believe that Germans were wasting scarce, valuable resources to "gas jews" and that such a thing is possible in such a small time frame, you are not very bright. Nazis treated the jews with relative dignity in the camps until the Germans started losing the war and the allies bombed the supply routes to the concentration camps. Yes people starved and it was a tragedy. Many people died. But no, it wasn't the Germans burning people, and it was nowhere close to 6 million.
Pretty crazy when you begin to understand just how warped the version of history we are taught is.
@Mark.W
you say "Is there a standard blessing in the Serbian Orthodox Church you give before going out to commit genocide? Or are all the Orthodox blessings the same?", as if there is something sinister and conspiratorial behind this.
first off, isolating orthodox church, or further isolating serbian orthodox church shows your predjudice like a lighthouse shining into a dark sea. so, the block of salt one must take with your comment is noted.
you fail to recognize, or simply choose to ignore the fact that most militaries have some form of spiritual holy person. it is their responsibility to bless their soldiers, to give them a spiritual hope before and after missions. serbia is not the only one. nor are orthodox religions the only ones.
as a matter of fact the catholic church has set of specific "in time of war" prayers.
http://www.catholictradition.org/war-time2.htm
the former english colony nations have chaplains in their ranks.
so wonder no longer. all militaries have their prayers before they send their ranks to kill others. call it what you like, but its all death, at the end their dead by "righteous" or "genocidal" means. i don't think those who die care much how it was done, in every case they were murdered.
The Pavelic Nezavisna Država Hrvatska government proclaimed themselves "Independent" and not a "puppet".
(Amnesty Yugoslavia, 30 July 2017 18:52)
If your criteria is that a government should be judged by what it calls itself, than the Nedic Влада народног спаса proclaimed itself as the "salvation" of the Serbs and not a "puppet".
Please do continue and blindly ignore the corrupt US military, and laughably reference their unproven statements
(Amnesty Yugoslavia, 29 July 2017 17:05)
Well, it was the US military which stated that the Nazis had ordered the shooting of one hundred prisoners or hostages in Serbia for each killed German soldier. Only a Serb hater like you would write that's an "unproven" statement!
Serbia wad militarily occupied by the German Army
(Do Not Resuscitate, 31 July 2017 20:35)
Exactly. I'm glad you finally realised that Serbia suffered the German Army military occupation as the rest of Yugoslavia.
(icj1, 1 August 2017 02:30)
Parts of Serbia were occupied by the German Military, whereas some other parts of Serbia and all of current day Republika Srpska were occupied by the Nezavisna (i.e. Independent) NDH. icj1 and other Ustasha apologists should stop ignoring those pesky and stubborn facts
(Amnesty Yugoslavia, 1 August 2017 12:14)
Well, our dear friend "Do Not Resuscitate" wrote that "Serbia wad militarily occupied by the German Army". Feel free to sort your "facts" out with him/her lol
Why does it matter whom was in charge, when we can't even get a close estimate of murdered? This is why your history is irrelevant in the 40's 20's and 90's. You were building cro nation in the 40s then why the f was it not a recognize country until 2014
Harsh words. I don't see that he accused Serbian Orthodox Church of crime and victim mocking when they canonized episcope Velimirovich, Milorad Vukoyichich (Vukojičić) and Slobodan Shiljak (Šiljak), last two leaders of a death squad, despite of their direct victims appeal. Usage of such phrases as "the Croatian hands are completely covered in blood" is definitely a hate speech, very shameful that this rethoric comes from a professor. Completely dissapointed that he yielded to this unproffesional claims and rantings.
Momcilo Djujic was directly subordinated to Odilo Globocnik and incorporated his division within Karl Taus area or responsibility, he also formed a battlegroup with Enrst Lerch during the operation Frühlingsanfang in Operationszone Adriatisches Küstenland where he received a company of 120 elite SS from Trieste headquarters. Reinhard Kopps was in his staff for more than a year. ...
(Matt, 27 July 2017 11:46)
And Zuroff receives an award from this guy's affiliate Nikolic earlier this year.
I suggest icj1, azir, avni, dwight and all the other Ustasha revisionists on this sight read this book
(njegos, 26 July 2017 13:26)
Stephanic is a disgrace and there is no way he should be canonised. The Ustashe were scum( and still are).
Stop inventing opinions for people you disagree with.
I don't believe that you would read a book by a Jew considering all the times on here that you have said how you wish that all Jews been exterminated by the Nazis, especially the children.
Nope, he received it in February this year. Google it. Nikolic is Šešelj's best man, and listen what he says how they founded their movement: https://youtu.be/s9ehEyZhHJs?t=39
Transcription: "I do not know if it is known to you, the only living Serbian Chetnik Warlord Momcilo Djujic from WW2, that lived in America, has declared me for a Serbian Chetnik Warlord in 1989., much prior to the war. To save this tradition, because if he had died prior to my declaration, that tradition would not have continuity. Thank to his act, this continuity has been preserved. Then I have declared around 19 or 20 other warlords." One of those warlords was his best man Nikolic who became the state president.
@Jugoslavija
Milorad Vukoyichich was a leader of Schwarze Troikas death squad. His companion Shiljak was in the same squad. Episcope is well known for his support of Dimitri Ljotic and Zbor party. He is also well known for his antisemitism, which he didn't abandon even when was in Dachau where he wrote one rather notorious antisemitic pamphlet. He was placed there as honorary prisoner under privileged treatment which lasted for only three months, after which he was displaced to Austria to villa of one of SS officers working in that region, that time Adriatische Küstenland, according to wishes of Dimitri Ljotic, Momcilo Djujic and others. He was intended to take a function in government that they planned to establish within the territory, which didn't happened because Ljotic didn't survive and partisans pushed them to Italy.
@Ian
Last elections before the war were held in 1938. In Europe, cca. 98% of Germans voted for Hitler (national-socialism), cca. 98% of Italians voted in 35' for Mussolini (fascism), and 95% of Croatians voted for Vladko Macek (democracy). Ustashi were a band of several hundred trojans within Italian camps trained for what they did. In april 1941. Germans and Italians occupied monarchy of Yugoslavia, imprisoned Vlatko Macek, banned the democrat party and installed their trojan band who gave them control over Croatian economic resources and infrastructure. Country ended up in a bloody civil war a couple of months later. Created chaos was used by communist party, a trojan of Stalin, to take the lead of uprisings. Banned democrat party splitted into passive, active resistance and collaboration in smallest percent. There were three Croatia states declared! One legal state declared pre-war by Macek, one puppet state declared by occupational force and expanded to muslim area, and one declared by improvised senate called ZAVNOH that gathered communists, democrat fraction in active resistance, Catholic priest, and Serb minority that later became a foundation from which modern state was born in 90'. To talk about this mess like mr. Gideon talks is completely unproffesional and below dignity of his office. It is insulting to issue phrases of hate on ethnic base, not just to Croatians but also to Holocaust survivors. Even worse if he is doing this to get interest for selling his book.
Based on November 1943. intelligence report of the 114. Hunting Division to the Chief of Staff of 15th Mountain Army Corps. of Wehrmacht regarding Chetnik cooperation, Djujic is described as a "member of Ljotic movement". British intelligence sources confirm his siding. According to Zb. NOR, VI/19, p.842., describing battles in Slovenia, that time part of Adriatische Küstenland, no. 170, order no.1707/45 issued by Ia department of the office of the Commandant of the SS and Police in Adriatische Küstenland, Odilo Globocnik, on March 19, 1945., Subject: Action of Chetnik Dinara Division units, the Stabskompanie (120 men) of the SS in Trieste under the command of Ernst Lerch is to be assigned under the command of the Commandant of the SS and Police in Gorizia, Karl Taus. The Stabskompanie's task is to integrate among the brigades of Dinara Division and through personal assistance to the commanding officers of the brigades simplify the order transmission on the field. Second task is to motivate the activities of the Chetnik brigades and in mutual efforts perform reconnaissance tasks in whole Vipava valley and deeper to the east, while Ernst Lerch maintains close coordination with vo. Djujic. This is only a fragment of entire activities in the operation which is a common subject of works of history students of University in Ljubljana and elsewhere.
"It was hell on earth. That is why in Jasenovac, the Croatian hands are completely covered in blood," Greif said.
The professor has been studying Jasenovac for the last two years, and has announced the publication of his book, "Jasenovac - the Auschwitz of the Balkans." He observed that Jasenovac was unique in having death camps for children.
These comments come from a Jewish Holocaust expert. I suggest icj1, azir, avni, dwight and all the other Ustasha revisionists on this sight read this book. Tito kept the horrors of the Ustasha quiet for far too long. It's time the world learns the real history of the EU's newest member.
Serbia wad militarily occupied by the German Army
(Do Not Resuscitate, 31 July 2017 20:35)
Exactly. I'm glad you finally realised that Serbia suffered the German Army military occupation as the rest of Yugoslavia.
(icj1, 1 August 2017 02:30)
Parts of Serbia were occupied by the German Military, whereas some other parts of Serbia and all of current day Republika Srpska were occupied by the Nezavisna (i.e. Independent) NDH. icj1 and other Ustasha apologists should stop ignoring those pesky and stubborn facts
(Amnesty Yugoslavia, 1 August 2017 12:14)
Well, our dear friend "Do Not Resuscitate" wrote that "Serbia wad militarily occupied by the German Army". Feel free to sort your "facts" out with him/her lol
You only have to read the chapter entitled Friends of Croatia in the book Hitler's Pope by a Catholic academic John Cornwell on the "innocence" of Stepinac during the war.
There are records where Stepinac whole heartily agreed with the Ustasha regime's policy towards non Catholics. This guy is sharing a pit of fire with Pope Pius 12 and JP2.
BOB
wierd how virtually 0 historians speak of serbs killing jews. Stop making up story lines to match the lies you believe. Croats were nazis, FACT. the catholic church is involved is so many different sick acts, support of croats killing people in a death camp is not shocking to anybody.
And some Serbs here tell that Croats think that Albanians are low life ??
Still Albanians in Croatia live side by side, without any problem and marry each – other.
What about Serbs ?
But how low life would be a Serbian life for a Croat after reading what they done to Serbian women, chilrden, man ?
Albanian men are strong rough men, but are compassionate – that’s their Achilles heel.
You say that Albanians hate you ??
I would say that we are the last on the list !
Show me one picture of a catholic priest blessing weapons and I show you 100 pictures of serb/russian/greek orthodox priests blessing weapons. Dude, the serb/russian/greek orthodox priests are phisically and mentaly stuck in the stoneage. Primitive mysticists with a flair for Jesus.
Quite amazing how Albanians are trying to say Serbians sided with NAZI Germany. Every side had collaborators, the British Queen and her family had links to the NAZIs, Prominent American business men, politicians and banks had collaborated with the NAZIs and Serbia under occupation had links also but all in all, we fought against them.
I know of not one Serb today who supports NAZIs, and we are proud to be part of its defeat. However, Albanians, Croatians and many others see that defeat as a loss, not a victory like Serbs and Russians, who celebrate each year.
Chetniks march on ANZAC day in Australia, as part of the Allied forces who defeated fascism. Croats are nowhere to be seen, neither are Albanians.
The one indisputable fact is that the willful killings of Jews, Serbs, Roma and other ethnicities were predominantly perpetrated by the Croat Ustasha and German Nazis.
(Amnesty Yugoslavia, 28 July 2017 16:04)
Absolutely, similarly to the one indisputable fact that the willful killings of Jews, Serbs, Roma and other ethnicities in Serbia were predominantly perpetrated by the Nedic government and German Nazis.
Absolutely, similarly to the one indisputable fact that the willful killings of Jews, Serbs, Roma and other ethnicities in Serbia were predominantly perpetrated by the Nedic government and German Nazis. (icj1, 28 July 2017 16:45)
---
Once again, those "stubborn facts" elude icj1, the CB of B92. Parts of current day Serbia and the entire region of today's Republika Srpska were occupied by the murderous Croat NDH, and not the "Nedic government". The killing of Jews, Serbs, Roma and other ethnicities across Yugoslavia was predominantly perpetrated by the Croat Ustasha.
wierd how virtually 0 historians speak of serbs killing jews. Stop making up story lines to match the lies you believe. Croats were nazis, FACT. the catholic church is involved is so many different sick acts, support of croats killing people in a death camp is not shocking to anybody.
(Ian, 26 July 2017 19:43)
The world holocaust rememberance center Yad Vashem does. Specially about the Chetniks.
"At the initial stage, there were some Jews among the Chetniks, but when it
turned out that the Chetniks were not fighting the invaders and their
collaborators, and in fact were inclined to cooperate with them, the Jews
switched to the ranks of the partisans. As the Chetniks increased their
cooperation with the Germans, their attitude toward the Jews in the areas
under their control deteriorated, and they identified the Jews with the hated
Communists. There were many instances of Chetniks murdering Jews or
handing them over to the Germans." Yad Vashem http://www.yadvashem.org/odot_pdf/microsoft%20word%20-%20160.pdf
Historian Christopher Browning stated on the subject of Holocaust and Serbian:
“ Serbia was the only country outside Poland and the Soviet Union where all Jewish victims were killed on the spot without deportation, and was the first country after Estonia to be declared "Judenfrei", a term used by the Nazis during the Holocaust to denote an area free of all Jews.
They couldn't even find more than cca 10 000 volunteers up to 1942, most ranks were filled by conscription and administrative reordering when they reached little less than 30 000 up to 1943., the rest are Homeland who were old monarchial army and conscripted population that was loyal to old representatives with very small combat value for occupational force, they were also a base for partisan ranks recruitment).
(Matt, 27 July 2017 11:46)
Yes we all know that according to the Croats it was the Serbs that sided with the Germans. However, history paints a different picture. Too bad you cant erase that, fascists bastards.
To Matt the revisionist: Here are accounts of those killed from German Generals:400,000 Serbs (Alexander Löhr); 350,000 Serbs (Lothar Rendulic); around 300,000 (Edmund Glaise von Horstenau); in 1943; "600–700,000 until March 1944" (Ernst Fick); 700,000 (Massenbach). Hermann Neubacher calculates:
The recipe, received by the Ustaše leader and Poglavnik, the president of the Independent State of Croatia, Ante Pavelić, resembled genocidal intentions from some of the bloodiest religious wars: "A third must become Catholic, a third must leave the country, and a third must die!" This last point of the Ustaše program was accomplished. When prominent Ustaše leaders claimed that they slaughtered a million Serbs (including babies, children, women and old men), that is, in my opinion, a boastful exaggeration. On the basis of the reports submitted to me, I believe that the number of defenseless victims slaughtered to be three quarters of a million.[101]
Italian generals reported similar figures to their commanders.[102] The Vatican's sources also speak of similar figures, that is, for an example, of 350,000 ethnic-Serbs slaughtered by the end of 1942 (Eugene Tisserant).[103]
The Germans, as we know, are known for their detail and record keeping.
Law Reports of Trials of War Criminals by The UN War Crimes Commision, volume VIII, 1949., no. 47 Trial of Wilhelm List and others, section A, subsection 3. Judgement, number xii under title "The Legal Status of the "Croatian Government"", p.72 - 74.
(Matt, 28 July 2017 16:40)
----
Yes, the UN Law Reports from 1949 also emphasize that the trial was not conducted by the Nuremberg International Military Tribunal, but in contrast was uni-national US military court. Thank you for providing additional reference to this fact, stubbornly ignored by others.
...but Ustashi administration created a problem when they banned further colonization...
(Matt, 1 August 2017 08:27)
---
Matt,
Your narratives are apparently inconsistent. Today you write the NDH and Ustashi were independent administrators and executed powers to ban colonization. It's certainly not the "puppet" state that icj1 and the corrupt US military tribunal falsely claim.
Thank you for your inconsistencies and providing this reference.
"Just like Jews can sense Nazi blood Serbs can sense Croatian blood".
-Bob Dylan.
"There is a crack in everything. That's how the light gets in".
-Leonard Cohen.
(njegos, 26 July 2017 21:22)
Please show just one instance where I am a Ustasha revisionist, just one! You can't because I never said any such thing. You either have me confused with somebody else, or you're just a plain liar. Might I suggest you get your facts straight before hurling unsubstantiated allegations against others you don't agree with. I'll accept your apology anytime, however, I believe your inflated ego will prevent you from doing what's right.
If, in 2017, you still believe that Germans were wasting scarce, valuable resources to "gas jews" and that such a thing is possible in such a small time frame, you are not very bright. Nazis treated the jews with relative dignity in the camps until the Germans started losing the war and the allies bombed the supply routes to the concentration camps. Yes people starved and it was a tragedy. Many people died. But no, it wasn't the Germans burning people, and it was nowhere close to 6 million.
Pretty crazy when you begin to understand just how warped the version of history we are taught is.
Pretty crazy when you begin to understand just how warped the version of history we are taught is.
(Bob, 27 July 2017 08:43)
--
Now Bob has made his historical position clear.
Apparently the massacre of a few thousand Bosnian Muslim soldiers after evacuating women, children and the elderly is genocide.
And the gassing of a few million Jews, women, children and the elderly by the NAZIs is not genocide, it is a misunderstanding and caused by the allies cutting supply lines.
Yep, this is the kind of anti-Serbian mentality we are dealing with. Even the Germans themselves admit to genocide.
If you're going to make references to Serbia being "Judenfrei" please have the intellectual decency to finish the analysis by connecting the deed and the statements to the right groups.
(Balkan Anthropologist, 27 July 2017 16:03)
Maybe you believe your own historians (Dr. Jovan Marjanovic & Mihail Stanisic) and your own archives:
The long concealed Historical Archives in Belgrade reveal that Banjica, a concentration camp located in Belgrade, was primarily staffed by Serbs. Funding for the conversion of the former barracks of the Serbian 18th infantry division to a concentration, came from the municipal budget of Belgrade. The camp was divided into German and Serbian sections. From Banjica there survive death lists written entirely in Serbian in the Cyrillic alphabet. At least 23,697 victims passed through the Serbian section of this camp. Many were Jews, including at least 798 children, of whom at least 120 were shot by Serbian guards.
What's wrong Dwight, can't you find all of those comments of mine that referenced my negative comments about Jews? I'm still waiting. Where are they? You are a liar and a coward. And please don't repost my comments as if they were your own as you did previously. Try thinking for yourself for a change.
(njegos, 28 July 2017 05:43)
What's wrong njegos, you cannot find any comments to support your accusation that I am a Ustashe revisionist, so you continue to talk about Jews, you are obsessed with them, I think I have hit a nerve?
Now icj1 is saying that you are picking on the Serbs .... is it because they wouldn't kill the Jews?
What's wrong Dwight? Still can't find anything in the archives to support your false allegations? Just as I stated, you're a liar and a coward. Now you're aligning yourself with icj1, the biggest Ustasha sympathizer and historical revisionist on this site. You're really scrapping the bottom of the barrel. You know what they say, 'you are the company you keep.' icj1 has been called out as liar, fraud and historical revisionist. When asked to defend herself, she runs away to another thread to continue her Serb-bashing. You're both pathetic...but entertaining.
Harsh words. I don't see that he accused Serbian Orthodox Church of crime and victim mocking when they canonized episcope Velimirovich, Milorad Vukoyichich (Vukojičić) and Slobodan Shiljak (Šiljak), last two leaders of a death squad,
(Matt, 26 July 2017 17:30)
Nikolaj Velimirovic was in Dachau concentration camp and then to the US. How did he get involved in so called Death camps? The other two are based on here say and not historical facts. Stepinac is entirely different with historical evidence and facts. You can imagine how much protection he was under as even Tito could not eliminate him but only put him under house arrest. He is protected by the Vatican as is Father Draganovic who used the rat lines to funnel Ustasha out of Europe to South America. The Italian camps were full of the Ustasha murderers.
Matt - You are a Croatian revisionist of the highest order. The Croatian masses in conjunction with their catholic clergy, embraced Ante Pavlic and his blood thirsty butchers. The Croat masses held a ticker tape parade for Hitler and his Nazis as they entered Zagreb. How many of your relatives were there Matt? Be honest now.
Interesting that you portray the Ustasha movement and ideology as a minority movement, yet Franjo Tudjman, the father of Croatian independence invited Croat war criminals (Dinko Sakic) back to Zagreb. He also renamed streets after Ustasha war criminals and denied the Holocaust ever took place in his book. Not to mention the Croatian youth that idolizes Thompson with his Ustasha-praising songs. And let's not forget the annual memorial service held in downtown Zagreb for Ante Pavelic. Your attempts to paint this ideology as a minority movement in Croatia smacks of historical revisionism. Keep at it though, maybe one day you'll even believe the smut you write. In the meantime, there are those of us who will be there to correct your comments at every turn. Unfortunately for you and your kind, the truth comes out eventually.
It seems your are clueless when jt comes to world affairs. Of course the globalist government of Germany will admit to the Holocaust. That does not mean that it isn't a made up story.
Serbia, on the other hand, unlike Nazis, committed REAL genocide. Just like the Turks did.
@njegos
You made a completely unsubsantiated comment about me being a "Ustasha revisionist" and are now outraged that someone invents stories about you.
Once you provide a link to my Ustasha revisionist comments, I will provide a link to your comments where you said that you were delighted that so few Jews are left in Serbia.
The difference is that between 1941-1945, Serbia was occupied and Croatia was liberated.
(Ari Gold, 26 July 2017 22:40)
Well, according to the Nuremberg Trials, it was proven beyond any reasonable doubt that Croatia was also occupied by the Nazis, just like Serbia. Sorry for shattering your dreams, dear, but facts are really stubborn...
Now icj1 is saying that you are picking on the Serbs .... is it because they wouldn't kill the Jews?
(Dwight, 28 July 2017 14:36)
---
icj1, the CB of B92, has demonstrated themself as an Ustasha apologist. Idiotic inferences from the warped mind of icj1 are incomprehensible to sane people. The one indisputable fact is that the willful killings of Jews, Serbs, Roma and other ethnicities were predominantly perpetrated by the Croat Ustasha and German Nazis.
Please do continue and blindly ignore the corrupt US military, and laughably reference their unproven statements
(Amnesty Yugoslavia, 29 July 2017 17:05)
Well, it was the US military which stated that the Nazis had ordered the shooting of one hundred prisoners or hostages in Serbia for each killed German soldier. Only a Serb hater like you would write that's an "unproven" statement!
From Dwight: "I don't believe that you would read a book by a Jew considering all the times on here that you have said how you wish that all Jews been exterminated by the Nazis, especially the children."
Please show just one instance where I have said that I wish all Jews had been exterminated, just one! You can't because I never said any such thing. You either have me confused with somebody else, or you're just a plain liar. Might I suggest you get your facts straight before hurling unsubstantiated allegations against others you don't agree with. I'll accept your apology anytime, however, I believe your inflated ego will prevent you from doing what's right.
From Dwight: "I don't believe that you would read a book by a Jew considering all the times on here that you have said how you wish that all Jews been exterminated by the Nazis, especially the children."
Please show just one instance where I have said that I wish all Jews had been exterminated, just one! You can't because I never said any such thing. You either have me confused with somebody else, or you're just a plain liar. Might I suggest you get your facts straight before hurling unsubstantiated allegations against others you don't agree with. I'll accept your apology anytime, however, I believe your inflated ego will prevent you from doing what's right.
(njegos, 26 July 2017 21:22)
njegos,
I have not commented before, however I have been following the comments on B92 for several years. On several occasions I have read many of your vicious remarks. One need only go to the archives to read what you spew in order to determine what kind of person you are. You should be ashamed of yourself for tainting the reputation of decent Serbs.
Wiki is not a source neither is your Croatian and post WWII Communist propaganda.
Nikolaj Velimirovic was never in an "Austrian Villa" if you have proof, send the source. Nikola Velimirovic was not an Anti-Semite, his writings are theological in nature, not in reference to the Hitler and Pavelic view of Christ and Anti-Semitism. If you have the source and Anti-Semitic article, post it for all to read.
'Momcilo Đujić was a fierce foe of the Nazis, Fascists and Communists that participated in epic World War II battles and carried out many acts of wartime bravery' David Binder
Dimitrije Llotic is a whole difference story, he even collaborated with the Ustasha.
If you are really interested in the true story of the Cetnik movement with court documents and testimony, I suggest you read the following;
Patriot or Traitor, The case of Draza Mihailovic, David Binder
Macek was first offered the position of Poglavnik , refused and put under house arrest by Ante Pavelic. Vladko Macek then appointed a representative to work with the Yugoslav monarchy in exile. The difference between Serbia and Croatia during the occupation of Yugoslavia by Nazi Germany is that the Croatians greeted the Nazi's with open arms and flowers in the streets of Zagreb. In Belgrade, Serbian citizens were hung from telephone pole to telephone pole across the main streets of Belgrade. Your attempt to portray the Croatians as democrats when they fully collaborated with the Nazi's is laughable, inconceivable and preposterous. Consider that only a small part of the Croatian fascists were caught in Bleiburg; look at the Croatian Ustasha populations in South America thanks to the Vatican, Franciscan monks and the ratlines.
From Spotter: "njegos,
I have not commented before, however I have been following the comments on B92 for several years. On several occasions I have read many of your vicious remarks. One need only go to the archives to read what you spew in order to determine what kind of person you are. You should be ashamed of yourself for tainting the reputation of decent Serbs."
Please provide some examples Spotter. Go to the archives that you mention. My comments, more than anything, defend Serbs against historical revisionists and are, for the most part, in response to distorted information spewed from Croat and Albanian apologists who can't come to grips with their own history. Additionally, most of what I present are researchable facts from reliable sources. My guess is that you are not a Serb. Please be more specific about what I've said that bothers you. I'd love to have a discussion with you.
gjon
the only real cetniks were the ones controlled by mihajlovic. all others may have called themselves cetniks, but had nothing to do with the real command of draza. nice try though. you can actually find pictures of albanians and other muslims collaborating with nazis. albania did 0 to liberate europe, they have always been a cancer, like a parasite on the balkans
(ian, 27 July 2017 18:52)
Sure. If you actually belive what you just wrote, despite the massive amount of evidence ( photos, documents etc.), then you are a special kind of stupid my little chetnik
Check Yad Vashem what they say about the chetniks.
Well, according to the Nuremberg Trials, it was proven beyond any reasonable doubt that Croatia was also occupied by the Nazis, just like Serbia. Sorry for shattering your dreams, dear, but facts are really stubborn...
(icj1, 28 July 2017 02:55)
---
A few facts for icj1, the CB of B92. The trial of The United States of America v. Wilhelm List, et al. was held from 8 July 1947 until 19 February 1948 and was the seventh of US run showcases. It did take place in US occupied Nuremberg, but it was a US military court and not the more recognized International Military Tribunal. No part of the trial or evidence includes any statements or comparisons of the NDH to Serbia. The "just like Serbia" exists only in the warped mind of icj1. Equating the murderous NDH as "just like Serbia" is typical daily drivel from our Ustasha apologist icj1. icj1 is the same commentator who in the past has celebrated crimes against religious institutions, and displayed an affection for debunked Mengele- based medicine. Idiocy, Ignorance and intolerance continue to define icj1.....just like his/her NDH criminal heroes.
Amnesty Yugoslavia and icj1 are the same person. No one can be as deliberately stupid as icj1. Amnesty has set-up this continual exchange with a straw-man, to mock the Croats.
@ Matt:
Serious consideration should indeed be given to the distinction between the Nuremberg IMT and the showcase trials run by US military tribunals where whitewashing of international war crimes was, and still is, common place.
...that Serb Orthodox Church with ultranationalists ...
(Matt, 29 July 2017 08:34)
---
No need to display your bias with broad strokes and derogatory remarks about an entire religion. Please do continue and blindly ignore the corrupt US military, and laughably reference their unproven statements about the NDH. What most serious historians do acknowledge is that many of the 20th and 21st centuries untried and unpunished war crimes, such as the genocide in Vietnam, were perpetrated by the US military.
If you wish to continue as yet another Ustasha apologist, then please avoid invoking a reference to one if the histories greatest criminal enterprises.
The killing of Jews, Serbs, Roma and other ethnicities across Yugoslavia was predominantly perpetrated by the Croat Ustasha.
(Amnesty Yugoslavia, 28 July 2017 18:53)
and by the Nedic puppet government, which, similarly to the Pavelic puppet government, joined the Nazis to kill Jews, Serbs, Roma and other ethnicities.
The Pavelic Nezavisna Država Hrvatska government proclaimed themselves "Independent" and not a "puppet".
(Amnesty Yugoslavia, 30 July 2017 18:52)
If your criteria is that a government should be judged by what it calls itself, than the Nedic Влада народног спаса proclaimed itself as the "salvation" of the Serbs and not a "puppet".
Serbs need to look at their own role in genocide committed against their own Jewish population in WW2 before pointing fingers at anyone else.
(Bob, 26 July 2017 17:57)
That search took less than 10 seconds since there number of active collaborators is minuscule and none of them are being rehabilitated by the Serbian government and no Serbian football fans chant fascist slogans at games and then claim it's just patriotic emotion when condemned. Last any historian checked, the only association Serbs had with death camps is that they were inmates in them. Nice try attempting to revise history. You must be a fan of Hasanbegovic.
(Half of mill. ustashis? Really? They couldn't even find more than cca 10 000 volunteers up to 1942, most ranks were filled by conscription and administrative reordering when they reached little less than 30 000 up to 1943.,
(Matt, 27 July 2017 11:46)
Those population numbers are current, obviously the Croatian populations in South America grew since 1945. What do you think? The Croatians loved South America so much they went on holidays!
Those population numbers are current, obviously the Croatian populations in South America grew since 1945. What do you think? The Croatians loved South America so much they went on holidays!
(Jugoslavija, 27 July 2017 18:03)
Totally baseless allegations. Please provide evidence from unbiased sources.
They are UNWCC recommended and relevant exemplary cases for application and interpretation of international law in relevant issues, particularly List case in this volume. This includes judgment remarks and other notes, and no one serious will exclude them from historiographical research and determining the general event framework. Remark about puppet state status is relevant for getting insight in general situation development, that was ranted as "revisionist". My first comment was about Mr. Greif's inappropriate remarks that contrary to that targeted entire ethnic population while giving support to Serb Orthodox Church and their political affiliates in case in front of Vatican Commision, at the same time ignoring that they canonized notorious antisemite and fascist episcope, together with a "priest" Vukoyichich (Vukojičić) from Schwarze Troikas that even has a verdict of being guilty of murder of ten persons in Montenegro, and Shiljak, if I haven't mistranslated his affiliation (not my field of interest), also being under accusation of murder, regardlessly how this is embarrasing to himself and might deteriorate reputation of instituion that he currently represents and what it tries to represent. I wonder how long will Israel authorities continue to swallow what they are serving them.
@Tony (a Brit currently working in Berlin)
If Stepinac was a person that Serb Orthodox Church with ultranationalists claims to be, then Amiel Shomrony would not two times submitted a request to Yad Vashem to recognize him as a Righteous Among the Nations. Amiel Shomrony was chief rabbi Shalom Freiberger's secretary during the occupation of Zagreb. Branko Lustig who produced the Schindlers list also shares the same conviction. Mr. Greif resolute accusation is over-exaggerated, maybe even misinformed.
Occupation summary was around 40 German Intelligence centres in Zagreb (HSSPF was running under different name) and a smaller count in around 124 cities over the territory, approx. 300 - 350 000 German soldiers, Italian army count prior to capitulation was approx. 150 - 200 000 soldiers in their zone, excluding other armies, all confiscating resources to Croatian and Bosnian population burdening already deteriorated life conditions, at the same time conscripting them into controlled puppet army, Ustashis were running local administration and camps under occupational surveillance. If those shelters were their invention, this would cause a logical problem since it would imply humanitarian intention on their side, which was not the case. What belongs to them is a humanitarian problem they caused in running those shelters they allowed to be established due to political pressures created from humanitarian organizations and individuals that initiated housings of children.
No bodies were exhumed, there were no individual names, no body counts and no decent burials, all in the name of the fake 'unity and brotherhood'. The innocent women and children in Stara Gradiska camp were starved and murdered. This site provides a small data base of names showing the attempted extermination of entire families, as with the massacres in Gopsic.http://www.jusp-jasenovac.hr/Default.aspx?sid=7620In the 90s the memorial to the murdered in Gopsic was removed and the museum turned into a meeting center. This is how the victims of the Holocaust Era in Croatia are remembered.
To talk about this mess like mr. Gideon talks is completely unproffesional and below dignity of his office. It is insulting to issue phrases of hate on ethnic base, not just to Croatians but also to Holocaust survivors. Even worse if he is doing this to get interest for selling his book.
(Matt, 26 July 2017 21:01)
=====================
And you would know a lot about Holocaust survivors.
Matt, this man has been researching this topic for two years and obviously had access to a lot of material (except the monster cardinal's material). How long have you been researching this topic?
Are you going on some version of history taught in Croatia?
You seem to think of yourself as an expert on Jasenovac and the office of Mr Gideon. Is this a self proclaimed position or has someone bestowed this title on you?
One important question is why is information on the cardinal locked up and nobody is allowed to access it if there is nothing proving he is a monster? Why?
All you can do is point a finger at Serbs and say how Serbs are no better. I agree, everyone has committed crimes in wars but none to the extent of Croatians where they had nuns in charge of the only death camp for children. Imagine that, nuns playing such a role and the Vatican pretends to be holy.
Very interesting comment, but if the hatred of Serbs can be allocated to 'a few hundred Trojans' how do you explain the widespread love of the Ustashe in Croatia today, school children marching down the road shouting 'For Home Ready', all those chequerboard flags in every doorway? Smells like widespread fascism to me, smells like some endemic superiority syndrome deeply rooted in Croatian society?
@njegos
On territory of old Yugoslavia lived about a half of million Volksdeutchers, around 150 to 200 000 on territory of what is modern day Croatia, mostly in northern parts. German divisions with Croatian marks were formed from their population. It is not clear who showed open sympathy for German army, and some of them had both Croatian and German identity affiliation. Majority was indifferent. According to US Military Tribunal trial on List and others, around 5% showed support to representatives of the puppet state. German generals were reporting even before dissolution of Soviet-Germany treaty that the occupation was not accepted in majority of the occupied territory. Franjo Tudjman was Tito's partisan and personally fought Nazi's, regardless of whether someone likes him or not. Dinko Sakic was arrested and prosecuted.
@jugoslavia
Momcilo Djujic was directly subordinated to Odilo Globocnik and incorporated his division within Karl Taus area or responsibility, he also formed a battlegroup with Enrst Lerch during the operation Frühlingsanfang in Operationszone Adriatisches Küstenland where he received a company of 120 elite SS from Trieste headquarters. Reinhard Kopps was in his staff for more than a year. (Half of mill. ustashis? Really? They couldn't even find more than cca 10 000 volunteers up to 1942, most ranks were filled by conscription and administrative reordering when they reached little less than 30 000 up to 1943., the rest are Homeland who were old monarchial army and conscripted population that was loyal to old representatives with very small combat value for occupational force, they were also a base for partisan ranks recruitment).
Todays war criminals have video camera's and and record themselves getting blessed by a Serbian Orthodox priest before going to murder people.
(Mark.W, 27 July 2017 04:08)
I think it's adorable you believe the early to mid 1990s during war time constitutes "today".
From dwight: "Please show just one instance where I am a Ustasha revisionist, just one! You can't because I never said any such thing. You either have me confused with somebody else, or you're just a plain liar. Might I suggest you get your facts straight before hurling unsubstantiated allegations against others you don't agree with. I'll accept your apology anytime, however, I believe your inflated ego will prevent you from doing what's right."
You know what they say, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. Therefore, since you reposted, almost word for word, my comments to you, I'll take that as a compliment. Next time though, try coming up with your own thoughts, as hard as that may be for you. And back to your original comments to me, please show me where I said anything negative toward Jews. Please just one!
gjon
the only real cetniks were the ones controlled by mihajlovic. all others may have called themselves cetniks, but had nothing to do with the real command of draza. nice try though. you can actually find pictures of albanians and other muslims collaborating with nazis. albania did 0 to liberate europe, they have always been a cancer, like a parasite on the balkans
Thanks for your knowledge on this subject. It is very informative.
You have just raised the quality of discussions on this web site. I look forward to reading more of your well thoughtout comments which show a degree of knowledge that is truely lacking on this site.
Show me one picture of a catholic priest blessing weapons and I show you 100 pictures of serb/russian/greek orthodox priests blessing weapons
=================
Gjon, I would suggest you don't play poker. If you want to raise stakes be careful because there was a concentration camp just for children run by Catholic nuns in Croatia. The only concentration camp just for children ever.
You can fold your cards now.
Why does it matter whom was in charge, when we can't even get a close estimate of murdered? This is why your history is irrelevant in the 40's 20's and 90's. You were building cro nation in the 40s then why the f was it not a recognize country until 2014
Serbs need to look at their own role in genocide committed against their own Jewish population in WW2 before pointing fingers at anyone else.
(Bob, 26 July 2017 17:57)
The difference is that between 1941-1945, Serbia was occupied and Croatia was liberated. Serbian Jews died side by side with the Serbian Orthodox and were killed by German Nazis. In the NDH, the Ustashe butchered in the most sadistic ways several hundred thousand Serbs (mainly), Jews, Roma and anti-Nazi Croats & Bosniaks.
@miles
This is a mixture of hooligan subculture, confusion created by political rantings from all sides followed by media exagerations and even false reportings, low knowledge of not so simple history leading to non-differentiation of what represents what to whom, noting that slogans are rather simple and various subjective meanings can be imposed on them, bringing more to confusion. You could probably find more reasons, but not fascism, most hardly know anything about it.
@Peggy
This "version" of history is ordinary historiography that you could find in any even old Yugoslavian books. First time heard that Cardinal is "locked up" or similar conspiratorial nonsense. One can have any impression on him as he like, but he doesnt have anything to do with any death camp nor approval of such treatments. Croatian and Bosnian territory was a battlefront on which at least six different armies were stationed, plus the criminal bands that were looting and exploiting the situation, large numbers of displaced people, a lot of diversion attacks on passive population, from all sides, very poor life conditions. Historian of his position should know how to approach to such population, if he has professional intentions.
The idea and the word of holocaust (catastrophy) both appeared 9 years after WW2 in the USA in 1954. At Nurenberg Tribunal the Jewish tragedy wasn't considered something extraordinary compared to the tragedies of th Russians, Byelorussians, Ukrainians, Poles, Roma ect. But Rothschilds could not finance Israel all the time so they put additional 1 Trln DM contribution on Germany. ww1 AND WW2 had one more dimention - those were also WARS OF THE ROCKELFELLERS AGAINST THE ROTHSCHIELS.
USSR and Russia have never admitted holocaust and nobody told us a word about it because all the documents are still in Moscow. That's why you will never find any statistics about holocaust in any state. 6 000 000 victims figures were offered by Stern Magazine in 1955. Other figures discussed were from 1 to 10 mln that was total absurd. Jasenovac and Auschwitz cannot be compared because Auschwitz was a city that included 13 camps like Jasenovac where 90% of prisoners were Slavs. Everything is well documented and all the papers are here in Moscow region. Hitler did not mean to eliminate the Jews but tried to export them everywhere he could.
... similarly to the Pavelic puppet government, joined the Nazis to kill Jews, Serbs, Roma and other ethnicities.
(icj1, 29 July 2017 21:38)
----
icj1, the CB of B92, ignores facts and failed basic language skills. The Pavelic Nezavisna Država Hrvatska government proclaimed themselves "Independent" and not a "puppet". Only in the warped mind of icj1 and corrupt US military tribunals is the word "nezavisna" understood as "puppet". Laughable.
@Peggy
If you are refering to Mr. Gideon's reference in this article in terms of an extermination subcamp for children, then those indications may be slightly problematic. Children brought from desolated areas into regular camps were exclusively on insistance of Mrs. D. Budisavljevic and Red Cross relocated to improvised shelters at cities Sisak and Jastrebarsko near Zagreb where were runned under administration of social affairs since they would almost certainly die in regular camps. Red Cross sent about a dozen nuns and medical personell to assist in their relocation, which was a result of what is known as Mrs. Budisavljevic Action for extraction of children from concentration camps. At each city local families were taking those children as refugees to their homes, which was called "colonization", but Ustashi administration created a problem when they banned further colonization, so large number of children were left without proper care thus causing humanitarian disaster, especially at city of Sisak. After the Archbishop intervened to lift the ban, colonization continued. Budisavljevic, Caritas and monsignor Paul Jesih from the Archdiocese organized the colonization for about 5-6 000 children to the end of 1942., mostly through local churches and their organizations. In other words these were not extermination camps as those from which they were brought, as Gideon might allude in the article for reasons known to him only.
Historian Christopher Browning stated on the subject of Holocaust and Serbian:
“ Serbia was the only country outside Poland and the Soviet Union where all Jewish victims were killed on the spot without deportation, and was the first country after Estonia to be declared "Judenfrei", a term used by the Nazis during the Holocaust to denote an area free of all Jews.
(Gjon Marku, 26 July 2017 23:38)
Yes, carried out in large part by the Germans. You seem to keep forgetting this crucial piece of information that keeps your opinions from becoming a valid argument. What support came from the Nedic quisling government was statistically too small to undertake the crimes you seem to attribute to Belgrade.
Harald Turner and Emanuel Schafer don't sound like a Serbian name.
If you're going to make references to Serbia being "Judenfrei" please have the intellectual decency to finish the analysis by connecting the deed and the statements to the right groups.
@Mark.W
you say "Is there a standard blessing in the Serbian Orthodox Church you give before going out to commit genocide? Or are all the Orthodox blessings the same?", as if there is something sinister and conspiratorial behind this.
first off, isolating orthodox church, or further isolating serbian orthodox church shows your predjudice like a lighthouse shining into a dark sea. so, the block of salt one must take with your comment is noted.
you fail to recognize, or simply choose to ignore the fact that most militaries have some form of spiritual holy person. it is their responsibility to bless their soldiers, to give them a spiritual hope before and after missions. serbia is not the only one. nor are orthodox religions the only ones.
as a matter of fact the catholic church has set of specific "in time of war" prayers.
http://www.catholictradition.org/war-time2.htm
the former english colony nations have chaplains in their ranks.
so wonder no longer. all militaries have their prayers before they send their ranks to kill others. call it what you like, but its all death, at the end their dead by "righteous" or "genocidal" means. i don't think those who die care much how it was done, in every case they were murdered.
Maybe you believe your own historians (Dr. Jovan Marjanovic & Mihail Stanisic) and your own archives:
(Gjon Marku, 27 July 2017 20:34)
No, I believe conventional historians throughout academia as well as common logic of the capabilities of an invading power controlling conquered territory populated by communities that by and large were systematically targeted by Germans, Croats, Hungarians, Bulgarians, and Albanians. I also have the easily accessible information on Allies looking at Yugoslavia, and Serbia in particular, as "Occupied Territory" instead of "Axis Allied".
Finding one example of a concentration camp in southern Belgrade, which was largely the only city/town where Nedic had some authority hardly makes the case that Serbs were collaborators; especially since another camp much closer to central Belgrade on the other side of the Sava in NDH-controlled territory housed Serb prisoners.
But good for you still trying to desperately beat this dead horse in some attempt at making a point I've already lost interest in entertaining you on.
@Amnesty
Law Reports of Trials of War Criminals by The UN War Crimes Commision, volume VIII, 1949., no. 47 Trial of Wilhelm List and others, section A, subsection 3. Judgement, number xii under title "The Legal Status of the "Croatian Government"", p.72 - 74.
Absolutely, similarly to the one indisputable fact that the willful killings of Jews, Serbs, Roma and other ethnicities in Serbia were predominantly perpetrated by the Nedic government and German Nazis.
(icj1, 28 July 2017 16:45)
Icj1's motto, 'A lie with each breath'.
Serbia wad militarily occupied by the German Army, unlike the NDH who did all on their lonesome. Nedic's authority barely reached beyond the buildings the the Germans let him occupy.
I can't wait for icj1's forthcoming revisionism out the Holocaust, written with Auschwitz Azir. You are both numpties.
Amnesty Yugoslavia and icj1 are the same person. No one can be as deliberately stupid as icj1. Amnesty has set-up this continual exchange with a straw-man, to mock the Croats.
(Ned, 29 July 2017 11:08)
---
Ned, although icj1 writes under many monikers, I am not icj1.
First and foremost, I am indeed a human person, which obviously distinguishes me from icj1.
icj1 is the CB of B92 who is a self-diagnosed nihilist that literally celebrates crimes against religious institutions. icj1 also favors Mengele's idiotic (un)scientific concepts of medical diagnoses linked to ethnicity. In contrast to icj1, I admire and defend the multi-ethnic south Slav people called Yugoslavs. Perhaps the only semblance of accuracy in your remark is the association of stupidity and icj1.
Disgusting. All those poor people who died...I can't imagine...but by looking at his crooked face I can catch a glimpse of all the sorrow, pain and fear this sadist caused.
It looks like icj1 is stepping up to the plate as B92's chief troll since Auschwitz Azir had his disgusting comments removed by b92 mods. He consistently winds up other commenters because he enjoys it, so he's a nasty piece of work and it's proud of it too.
...than (sic) the Nedic Влада народног спаса proclaimed itself as the "salvation" of the Serbs.... (icj1, 30 July 2017 22:20)
----
icj1, the CB of B92, continually wishes to emphasize their many failures. The Nedic government never proclaimed themselves as the "salvation of the Serbs". Those words only exist in the warped mind of icj1. Perhaps our resident bigot should learn the actual meaning of the word "народног".
Idiocy, ignorance and intolerance continue to define icj1.
Serbia suffered the German Army military occupation as the rest of Yugoslavia.
. (icj1, 1 August 2017 02:30)
---
icj1, the CB of B92, once again ignores those "stubborn facts".
Parts of Serbia were occupied by the German Military, whereas some other parts of Serbia and all of current day Republika Srpska were occupied by the Nezavisna (i.e. Independent) NDH. icj1 and other Ustasha apologists should stop ignoring those pesky and stubborn facts.
Idiocy, ignorance and intolerance continue to define icj1.
@ rancho rosa: Vojvoda Djujic or the Dinarska Division was never incorporated into or with the Nazis. That's a FUCKEN LIE, no matter who the source is.
Thompson, the allegations are not baseless but fact. Thousands of Nazis and Ustasa were smuggled out of Europe through the Vatican to Argentina and other South American countries, Australia, Canada and the U.S. by Allen Dulles, the first director of the C.I.A. IT WAS KNOWN AS RATLINES.
IMAGE SOURCE
104 Komentari
Sortiraj po: