"Kosovo's independence, debacle"

lili,
Yes things were soooo terrible for you in Serbia that illegal immigrants from albania flooded into Kosovo for a better life.
As for your current situation, enjoy it because I assure it will not last and Serbia will rid themselves of the occupying forces on their territory. Remember, Kosovo is sovereign Serbian soil, and the cradle of Serbian civilization. Serbs are here to stay, and the yanks are not.
Cheers!!

Thanks to "this lady" to remind all of us about this complete failure..... and thanks Lili, your comments are as always terribly objective....
Since you seem to be so well informed am sure that you also know who is controlling the drug trafficking in Switzerland....., and if you don't, then pls have a look at our official statistics, they are not coming from the moon...

Dear Margariti,

Thank you for your e-mail. I think that you should visit Serbia and I am sure that you would enjoy it.

There is no doubt that Kosovo Albanians have upper hand over Serbs at the moment. I think that this provides them with the opportunity to strike a historic deal with Serbs that would be mutually acceptable. Serbs do not intend to rule Kosovo, they just want a symbolic connection with it and influence over Serbian population. I do not think that this is too much and Albanians are in position to give this without jeopardizing their fundamental interest.

If Kosovo takes its independence by force (as it is now) this means that a future conflict is inevitable (in 20, 50 or 500 years but it would happen). I think that this could be avoided and the keys are in Albanian hands. Yugoslavia was about Balkan Nations being able to protect their own interests (become a power on its own) and being able to resist solutions imposed by foreign powers (that naturally protect their own interests). It did not survive as it was not strong enough. Now instead of Yugoslavia you have many small states that have to do what they are told. I think that it is much better if Albanians and Serbs sit down directly and find a solution, then if this solution is imposed on any of the sides.

Kind regards

Slobodan

As an American of Serbian descent, I applaud my government for its continued support of independent Kosovo.

...And as an American of Anglo-Saxon descent I DO NOT applaud my govt for helping to break international law by destroying a sovereign country's territorial integrity. The recognition of this pseudo-state is one of the biggest foreign policy mistakes this country has ever made and I mean EVER!

Dear Nick,

Thank you for your comments and sharing your opinion with us.

I have to say that you are the first person even remotely associated with Serbia (that I know) that has such strong support for independent Kosovo.

It would be great if you can elaborate in more details your opinion. Have you ever been to Serbia? How much do you know about region? How well do you know the history of the region? How do you feel about your Serbian ancestors?

It would be really great if you can write up little bit more about these issues. I would love to read it and it would be of great interest to all B92 readers.

Best wishes

# 4

"There is always going to be lunatic fringe like the group the woman in this article represents."

THIS could not have possibly been writen by an American of Serbian descent. Not in 1,000,000 years. It is so obvious that it is a sentence constructed by an American of Albanian descent. I know, I am an American of Serbian descent. Here in the USA we say: You can't hide your southern accent. BUST-ED!

Nick,

As a fellow Serbian American, I am also extremely curious how you arrived at your conclusion.

On what do you base your opinion that Kosovo should have independence? Do you feel all people should have the right to self determination or that the Serbian government so abused the Albanian population that they need to have independence, or some other justification?

What’s your opinion on areas such as the Krajina in Croatia, where hundreds of thousands (possibly a million) Serbs died in death camps in WWII and the remainder were ethnically cleansed in 1995? Where that event is celebrated as a great national holiday every year?

Do you support the Right to Self Determination for all ethnicities except the Serbs?

How do you feel about the reports in the Western Media leading up to the bombing that implied 100,000 deaths in Kosovo, when the reality was it was only 2,000 at that time?

Personally I support some kind of partition type compromise in Kosovo, I’m way “liberal”, but in all honesty I’m highly perplexed by your opinion. Even Optor came out in droves against the bombing.

I’m also curious what you find so ignorant in Ilana’s opinion? I don’t 100% agree, but it seems a fairly accurate depiction of the events surrounding the UDI. It hasn’t been smooth so far in the least.

There is always going to be lunatic fringe like the group the woman in this article represents. Ignore the ignorant.

As an American of Serbian descent, I applaud my government for its continued support of independent Kosovo.

does this lady think that kosovo was not a place were unemployement,poverty etc was present before independence?

None of us will change independence for serbian rule!
and most of us think that live is better today than yesterday,and we are even the most optimist of europe about the future!
Off course there is overty,and difficult conditions for life,but compared to what it was during serbian rule,things are very much better!
PS/do you really believe that during serbian rule,there was no crime no smuggling,no traffic? Some used to go to itali and even poland for traffic,so don't discover the moon now!

ethnic Albanians (Kosova + Albania) supply 10 to 20% of the heroin market in EU and the traffic is DECLINING.
(ben, 30 December 2008 15:34)

First of all Ben, don't know what you mean when you say "blame yourself" since am neither greek, bulgarian, serb, macedonian etc. but swiss and this since the 13th century, so don't get your point!
Secondly am not talking about EU but Switzerland which is unfortunately a specific case due to the very high number of K-A in our country
third, I stand by what I said the drug traffic is controlled in switzerland by K-A, furthermore the highest pct in our prisons are mostly by K-A, guess why.....

Now, let me make a point, the first generation of K-A which came to Switzerland are very well integrated, respected and hard workers (I know a few of them); these same people were fearing for their safety when the snake was around leaving in Lausanne, any idea why?
As to the second wave that abused of our natural humanitarian behaviour during the 90's, a vast majority are not and will never integrate and are trouble makers!!

If you want to double check these facts, then come to Switzerland and make your own opinion, you will be surprised about the result!

With this kind of "ever crying" and "we are the best and the others are always guilty" attitude you will always hit a wall and will then wonder why people have little respect for you!

Well Ben, by purpose I choosed 2 articles, 99 and 2008, and whether you like it or not, not much has changed...
My point is simple, the same people that initiated that mess are now in power in Kosovo and I don't think that this is the right solution unless EU wanted to have some control over them!

These all situation is just a ticking bomb and just proved how negligent the foreign community acted, whether in the past or now!

Am glad that you are aware of the problems we have in switzerland... and the hope that our stupid politicians had was, let's recon Kosovo and then we'll send these trouble makers back....not that easy, less than 1% returned and I guess you are also one of them that do not has a big wish to return and I understand why.
Being a patriot outside and yelling at however do not share your opinion is easy, but doing something constructive for your land, difficult task!!

Here Ben some facts, but am sure you will find another excuse or blame somebody else or accuse the all world of acting under serbian propaganda!!

http://www.wsws.org/articles/1999/jun1999/kla-j29.shtml

Ben, some more from your glorious heroes...



http://www.wsws.org/articles/2008/apr2008/kla-a16.shtml

i actually read an article in the swiss press 2 days ago that says something similar. it criticises serbia for refusing to accept kosovo's independence "which resulted from serbia's policies", but it also criticises the eu for not acting more decisevely. it also concludes that the campaign for kosovo's independence was a debacle. it also says that there is a "threat" that this would result in the creation of "greater albania".

while i agree with the factual examination of the situation i don't share either author's ideas about what's good and bad and what were the mistakes and right decisions in all this.

Dear Niko,

Thank you for your effort to provide more information about the article in question.

Based on what you have amended, I do not think that B92 have altered in any way the spirit/point of the article. Also, it is probably not correct to call B92 a propaganda (Serbian), as this is a company with a unique portfolio of International Awards in Balkans. Such statement was unnecessary and did not help your cause as it demonstrated your bias.

Dont forget they started to attack cops again... but now they r attacking albanian and muslim cops as well... albans... what do u expect?

Regardless she says whether Kosovo deserved independence or not.
Well, her disregard about the humans involved in this case, tells a lot about her intentions.
As far as I remember it was only the Russians that threatened to veto a UN drafted resolution in the Security Council.
Not everyone assumed what this lady claims to be a bad precedent.
Out of all the relevant factors in the Kosovo’s case, again it was only the Russians that found it convenient to assume so. When the dust created by Serbia, Russia and a very few individuals, eventually settles down, it will be crystal clear for everyone that Kosovo’s independence is a unique reality and an absolute necessity.

The analysis do not speculate on right or wrong of the independence. It rather says about the inability that is, flirt of EU with Serbia that undermines the crdibility of UDI (I don't know any coordinatet delaration of independence in history) and the succesive recognitions by the same EU. Not being effective in making better case on why the recogntions were made and pushed for the recognitin to other parts in the world.

And btw: the FACT is that Kosova has problems with narco- trafficking and the drugs pass into Kosova through Serbia and Macedonia and before them Bulgaria and Greece (it is PHYSICALLY impossible otherwise). Hence, before blaming Kosova you should blame yourself.

And when you will start speaking with facts instead of stereotypes is above all question that you should address to yourselves.
UN Office on Drugs and Crime in 2008 report that overall ethnic Albanians (Kosova + Albania) supply 10 to 20% of the heroin market in EU and the traffic is DECLINING.

The Swiss, you have taken time to back up your points but as you can see, whenever you present evidence the Albanian camp will call it a propaganda site.

Any time they don't agree with something they scream "propaganda" or Milosevic Propaganda. Their eyes, ears and minds are shut to anything they don't like.

To state that one is objective and has no prejudice and then HUNT stories of 1999 is something that I can't digest, sorry ;)

I have been in Swiss many times- I have parent married with Swiss (sorry I don't know the century) I know Swiss doctoral researchrs and I have quite good picture on the K-A (non)integration into he Swiss society.

And I am not minimizing here the fact that many K-A are involved in the criminal activities in Swiss.

I have never lived in Kosovo prior or in ex Yugoslavia before and I don't presently. What do Serbs pretend, I am not able to understand? When the small brother is divorcing you, what do you think from someone that is estranged.

Classical example of Serbian propaganda of taking phrases here and there out of context, uniting them together and changing the meaning of the whole argument into something that fits their propaganda purpose.

Here are both paragraphs without the editing of B92:
Quote
"With a bit of effort, a few other bright patches can be found, but they have been lost in the spectacular meltdown that was 2008. And while the financial crisis hit deeply in the summer, the whole year was one of a negative spiral, especially on foreign and security affairs, starting from the unilateral declaration of independence by Kosovo in February. It was an ill-conceived, amateurishly handled move, lacking consensus in the EU and in the international arena. Regardless of whether Kosovo deserved independence or not, the reasoning behind it was contorted at the best of times, laying open the deep global divisions over international law and its application. From a narrowly EU perspective, it was a public relations disaster that mutated into a substantive one, given the inability to deploy the much-planned EU mission Eulex, which was meant to succeed the UN mission, Unmik. That Eulex finally got some people on the ground in the past few weeks is down to another round of doubtful deals rather than clear resolutions."



But then clear resolutions were not on offer: Kosovo paralysed the UN Security Council because of threatened US or Russian vetoes. As a result, the entire debacle became exactly that which everyone assumed it would be from the start: a bad precedent. Fast forward to August and watch Russia endlessly trot out Kosovo as its excuse for invading Georgia: in its terms, simply a repeat of what the West had done in the Balkan province. That Russia undermined its own argument by reaching the outskirts of Tbilisi does not negate the fact that, if it had taken just Abkhazia and South Ossetia, the West would have found it extremely difficult to counter the mirror logic of its own actions."
Unquote


"Regardless of whether Kosovo deserved independence or not, the reasoning behind it was contorted at the best of times, laying open the deep global divisions over international law and its application."
Here is the link for the reader to judge by themselves:
http://www.europeanvoice.com/article/imported/the-end-of-a-bad,-bad-year/63465.aspx

Why this phrase was cut from your edition B92?

Using the World Socialist Website to find "documentation" is a far reach by any accounts.

does this lady think that kosovo was not a place were unemployement,poverty etc was present before independence?

None of us will change independence for serbian rule!
and most of us think that live is better today than yesterday,and we are even the most optimist of europe about the future!
Off course there is overty,and difficult conditions for life,but compared to what it was during serbian rule,things are very much better!
PS/do you really believe that during serbian rule,there was no crime no smuggling,no traffic? Some used to go to itali and even poland for traffic,so don't discover the moon now!

There is always going to be lunatic fringe like the group the woman in this article represents. Ignore the ignorant.

As an American of Serbian descent, I applaud my government for its continued support of independent Kosovo.

lili,
Yes things were soooo terrible for you in Serbia that illegal immigrants from albania flooded into Kosovo for a better life.
As for your current situation, enjoy it because I assure it will not last and Serbia will rid themselves of the occupying forces on their territory. Remember, Kosovo is sovereign Serbian soil, and the cradle of Serbian civilization. Serbs are here to stay, and the yanks are not.
Cheers!!

Regardless she says whether Kosovo deserved independence or not.
Well, her disregard about the humans involved in this case, tells a lot about her intentions.
As far as I remember it was only the Russians that threatened to veto a UN drafted resolution in the Security Council.
Not everyone assumed what this lady claims to be a bad precedent.
Out of all the relevant factors in the Kosovo’s case, again it was only the Russians that found it convenient to assume so. When the dust created by Serbia, Russia and a very few individuals, eventually settles down, it will be crystal clear for everyone that Kosovo’s independence is a unique reality and an absolute necessity.

Dear Margariti,

Thank you for your e-mail. I think that you should visit Serbia and I am sure that you would enjoy it.

There is no doubt that Kosovo Albanians have upper hand over Serbs at the moment. I think that this provides them with the opportunity to strike a historic deal with Serbs that would be mutually acceptable. Serbs do not intend to rule Kosovo, they just want a symbolic connection with it and influence over Serbian population. I do not think that this is too much and Albanians are in position to give this without jeopardizing their fundamental interest.

If Kosovo takes its independence by force (as it is now) this means that a future conflict is inevitable (in 20, 50 or 500 years but it would happen). I think that this could be avoided and the keys are in Albanian hands. Yugoslavia was about Balkan Nations being able to protect their own interests (become a power on its own) and being able to resist solutions imposed by foreign powers (that naturally protect their own interests). It did not survive as it was not strong enough. Now instead of Yugoslavia you have many small states that have to do what they are told. I think that it is much better if Albanians and Serbs sit down directly and find a solution, then if this solution is imposed on any of the sides.

Kind regards

Slobodan

Thanks to "this lady" to remind all of us about this complete failure..... and thanks Lili, your comments are as always terribly objective....
Since you seem to be so well informed am sure that you also know who is controlling the drug trafficking in Switzerland....., and if you don't, then pls have a look at our official statistics, they are not coming from the moon...

The analysis do not speculate on right or wrong of the independence. It rather says about the inability that is, flirt of EU with Serbia that undermines the crdibility of UDI (I don't know any coordinatet delaration of independence in history) and the succesive recognitions by the same EU. Not being effective in making better case on why the recogntions were made and pushed for the recognitin to other parts in the world.

And btw: the FACT is that Kosova has problems with narco- trafficking and the drugs pass into Kosova through Serbia and Macedonia and before them Bulgaria and Greece (it is PHYSICALLY impossible otherwise). Hence, before blaming Kosova you should blame yourself.

And when you will start speaking with facts instead of stereotypes is above all question that you should address to yourselves.
UN Office on Drugs and Crime in 2008 report that overall ethnic Albanians (Kosova + Albania) supply 10 to 20% of the heroin market in EU and the traffic is DECLINING.

To state that one is objective and has no prejudice and then HUNT stories of 1999 is something that I can't digest, sorry ;)

I have been in Swiss many times- I have parent married with Swiss (sorry I don't know the century) I know Swiss doctoral researchrs and I have quite good picture on the K-A (non)integration into he Swiss society.

And I am not minimizing here the fact that many K-A are involved in the criminal activities in Swiss.

Dear Nick,

Thank you for your comments and sharing your opinion with us.

I have to say that you are the first person even remotely associated with Serbia (that I know) that has such strong support for independent Kosovo.

It would be great if you can elaborate in more details your opinion. Have you ever been to Serbia? How much do you know about region? How well do you know the history of the region? How do you feel about your Serbian ancestors?

It would be really great if you can write up little bit more about these issues. I would love to read it and it would be of great interest to all B92 readers.

Best wishes

I have never lived in Kosovo prior or in ex Yugoslavia before and I don't presently. What do Serbs pretend, I am not able to understand? When the small brother is divorcing you, what do you think from someone that is estranged.

Using the World Socialist Website to find "documentation" is a far reach by any accounts.

Classical example of Serbian propaganda of taking phrases here and there out of context, uniting them together and changing the meaning of the whole argument into something that fits their propaganda purpose.

Here are both paragraphs without the editing of B92:
Quote
"With a bit of effort, a few other bright patches can be found, but they have been lost in the spectacular meltdown that was 2008. And while the financial crisis hit deeply in the summer, the whole year was one of a negative spiral, especially on foreign and security affairs, starting from the unilateral declaration of independence by Kosovo in February. It was an ill-conceived, amateurishly handled move, lacking consensus in the EU and in the international arena. Regardless of whether Kosovo deserved independence or not, the reasoning behind it was contorted at the best of times, laying open the deep global divisions over international law and its application. From a narrowly EU perspective, it was a public relations disaster that mutated into a substantive one, given the inability to deploy the much-planned EU mission Eulex, which was meant to succeed the UN mission, Unmik. That Eulex finally got some people on the ground in the past few weeks is down to another round of doubtful deals rather than clear resolutions."



But then clear resolutions were not on offer: Kosovo paralysed the UN Security Council because of threatened US or Russian vetoes. As a result, the entire debacle became exactly that which everyone assumed it would be from the start: a bad precedent. Fast forward to August and watch Russia endlessly trot out Kosovo as its excuse for invading Georgia: in its terms, simply a repeat of what the West had done in the Balkan province. That Russia undermined its own argument by reaching the outskirts of Tbilisi does not negate the fact that, if it had taken just Abkhazia and South Ossetia, the West would have found it extremely difficult to counter the mirror logic of its own actions."
Unquote


"Regardless of whether Kosovo deserved independence or not, the reasoning behind it was contorted at the best of times, laying open the deep global divisions over international law and its application."
Here is the link for the reader to judge by themselves:
http://www.europeanvoice.com/article/imported/the-end-of-a-bad,-bad-year/63465.aspx

Why this phrase was cut from your edition B92?

As an American of Serbian descent, I applaud my government for its continued support of independent Kosovo.

...And as an American of Anglo-Saxon descent I DO NOT applaud my govt for helping to break international law by destroying a sovereign country's territorial integrity. The recognition of this pseudo-state is one of the biggest foreign policy mistakes this country has ever made and I mean EVER!

i actually read an article in the swiss press 2 days ago that says something similar. it criticises serbia for refusing to accept kosovo's independence "which resulted from serbia's policies", but it also criticises the eu for not acting more decisevely. it also concludes that the campaign for kosovo's independence was a debacle. it also says that there is a "threat" that this would result in the creation of "greater albania".

while i agree with the factual examination of the situation i don't share either author's ideas about what's good and bad and what were the mistakes and right decisions in all this.

Nick,

As a fellow Serbian American, I am also extremely curious how you arrived at your conclusion.

On what do you base your opinion that Kosovo should have independence? Do you feel all people should have the right to self determination or that the Serbian government so abused the Albanian population that they need to have independence, or some other justification?

What’s your opinion on areas such as the Krajina in Croatia, where hundreds of thousands (possibly a million) Serbs died in death camps in WWII and the remainder were ethnically cleansed in 1995? Where that event is celebrated as a great national holiday every year?

Do you support the Right to Self Determination for all ethnicities except the Serbs?

How do you feel about the reports in the Western Media leading up to the bombing that implied 100,000 deaths in Kosovo, when the reality was it was only 2,000 at that time?

Personally I support some kind of partition type compromise in Kosovo, I’m way “liberal”, but in all honesty I’m highly perplexed by your opinion. Even Optor came out in droves against the bombing.

I’m also curious what you find so ignorant in Ilana’s opinion? I don’t 100% agree, but it seems a fairly accurate depiction of the events surrounding the UDI. It hasn’t been smooth so far in the least.

Dont forget they started to attack cops again... but now they r attacking albanian and muslim cops as well... albans... what do u expect?

ethnic Albanians (Kosova + Albania) supply 10 to 20% of the heroin market in EU and the traffic is DECLINING.
(ben, 30 December 2008 15:34)

First of all Ben, don't know what you mean when you say "blame yourself" since am neither greek, bulgarian, serb, macedonian etc. but swiss and this since the 13th century, so don't get your point!
Secondly am not talking about EU but Switzerland which is unfortunately a specific case due to the very high number of K-A in our country
third, I stand by what I said the drug traffic is controlled in switzerland by K-A, furthermore the highest pct in our prisons are mostly by K-A, guess why.....

Now, let me make a point, the first generation of K-A which came to Switzerland are very well integrated, respected and hard workers (I know a few of them); these same people were fearing for their safety when the snake was around leaving in Lausanne, any idea why?
As to the second wave that abused of our natural humanitarian behaviour during the 90's, a vast majority are not and will never integrate and are trouble makers!!

If you want to double check these facts, then come to Switzerland and make your own opinion, you will be surprised about the result!

With this kind of "ever crying" and "we are the best and the others are always guilty" attitude you will always hit a wall and will then wonder why people have little respect for you!

Here Ben some facts, but am sure you will find another excuse or blame somebody else or accuse the all world of acting under serbian propaganda!!

http://www.wsws.org/articles/1999/jun1999/kla-j29.shtml

Ben, some more from your glorious heroes...



http://www.wsws.org/articles/2008/apr2008/kla-a16.shtml

Well Ben, by purpose I choosed 2 articles, 99 and 2008, and whether you like it or not, not much has changed...
My point is simple, the same people that initiated that mess are now in power in Kosovo and I don't think that this is the right solution unless EU wanted to have some control over them!

These all situation is just a ticking bomb and just proved how negligent the foreign community acted, whether in the past or now!

Am glad that you are aware of the problems we have in switzerland... and the hope that our stupid politicians had was, let's recon Kosovo and then we'll send these trouble makers back....not that easy, less than 1% returned and I guess you are also one of them that do not has a big wish to return and I understand why.
Being a patriot outside and yelling at however do not share your opinion is easy, but doing something constructive for your land, difficult task!!

# 4

"There is always going to be lunatic fringe like the group the woman in this article represents."

THIS could not have possibly been writen by an American of Serbian descent. Not in 1,000,000 years. It is so obvious that it is a sentence constructed by an American of Albanian descent. I know, I am an American of Serbian descent. Here in the USA we say: You can't hide your southern accent. BUST-ED!

Dear Niko,

Thank you for your effort to provide more information about the article in question.

Based on what you have amended, I do not think that B92 have altered in any way the spirit/point of the article. Also, it is probably not correct to call B92 a propaganda (Serbian), as this is a company with a unique portfolio of International Awards in Balkans. Such statement was unnecessary and did not help your cause as it demonstrated your bias.

The Swiss, you have taken time to back up your points but as you can see, whenever you present evidence the Albanian camp will call it a propaganda site.

Any time they don't agree with something they scream "propaganda" or Milosevic Propaganda. Their eyes, ears and minds are shut to anything they don't like.